I've read many times how eloquently cl2 speaks about her husband and how his being gay affected her life and the lives of her children. Did you read/hear Packer's talk, and what are your thoughts (if you don't mind sharing them!)?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50404210-78/packer-apostle-laws-church.html.csp

They sound like morons. It's gotta be embarassing to the faithful rank and file with half a brain and a few ounces of empathy to listen to drivel like that.

Apparently Packer et al 'believe' that rote repitition of the same message will somehow convince those unbelievers who will still 'listen'. Because tscc is such a large org <large audience>, that's unfortunately accurate; BUT: it doesn't change the nature of the message; it's always been: You're WRONG, We're RIGHT.

In general, 'from the get-go', Mormonism and a lot of other religions/faith systems only succeed because they make the product too complicated! With the essentials of Christian Living, only a couple concepts (Golden Rule, parable of Good Samaritan, etc) are needed/necessary.

GNPE, you are right. Only a couple of concepts are necessary to live a good life- one of caring and respect for others.

When you look at Packer's argumnet that same sex attactraction can be overcome because it is "controllable" and "from the adversary" (read: from the devil) then how do you explain those who are born with both sexes? Isn't creation of god?

Packer's argument that "God is our Father" and "wouldn't do that" is quite ridiculous when the fact that these people exist is obvious and well known. Wouldn't you agree that being born with both sexes would be a serious concern about what you are?
God clearly can do that....so this statement is specious.

Curiously, the church's solution to those born with both sexes is to have Priestood leaders pray to determine the sex of the child! Is this pure arrogance or what? This should be a decision the family makes and ultimately the child when it reaches maturity, but no--church leaders make this decision for you AND IT IS PERMANENT. NO APPEAL SO ITS FINAL. I call this pure insanity...this is no business of the church. They can advise IF ASKED, but...knowing that there are leaders in the church that are not who they say they are...I would be very uncomfortable make this decision myself for my own, much less HAVING A COMPLETE STRANGER DO IT. It seem bizzare and crazy.
Just like trying to determine someone's orientation, preferences and prejudices.

I had a friend who served in the Stake High Council where this came up. The Stake President made the decision AFTER asking the council for their vote. His determination was final. Umm right.

Clearly, Packer is out to lunch when it comes to understanding that while he is entitled to his opinion, forcing people to follow his rules denies people their free agency.

As I saw in a blog today: How does granting marriage rights to gays diminish or harm marriage rights for straights? If you don't want a gay marriage...don't get one. That pretty much sums it up.

I thought the message of Jesus Christ was about love and inclusion, not about hate and exclusion...

Apparently the Mormon leadership sees things differently.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard! But I guess that is what you get when you have a bunch of authoritarian a**holes who think they speak for God.

While I think what Packer said was loathsome and well deserving of condemnation, I think it puts some of the evangelical Christians who want to convert Mormons in a pickle. On the one hand, Packer did go on about the "gods" creating humanity (which rather flies in the face of the evangelical Christianity that the church has been trying to align itself to for some time now. On the other hand, most evangelical Christians dislike GLBT persons about as much as BKP does. So the quandary is that certain websites would LOVE to discuss this, but if they do, they open themselves up to people like me who would just ask what the difference is between the LDS church and their beliefs on this subject (as in, "not much at all.")

I also believe that there should be a rule that if you're too elderly and weak to stand at the podium, maybe you shouldn't be mouthing off to the rest of us.

Packer words are so shameful; The church is talking too much about our lives in our house, Its mind control, and telling us about sex is a problem, this is BS! I hate how he throws his words around!

I honestly believe that Packer is a either a closeted homosexual, or suffers from some secret sexual perversion.

He's been OBSESSED about this topic for decades

that Packer probably won't outlive Monson.

With drivel like this he would have driven away millions.

I would think by now many of them would be starting to have doubts about the Mormon church's 1950s vision of gays and gay rights. I've only read the highlights of Packer's talk, but I wonder if they didn't just dismiss that talk out of pity for Packer's failing health. He must have sounded like a senile old coot. I imagine though that Packer was speaking directly to Dr. Bradshaw of BYU and his recent presentation in a sort of McConkie/England narcissistic slapdown.

Still, the tone of the words I read gave me a feeling of darkness. What an ugly human being.

But, I've had enough conflict for one day. I'm having more and more trouble respecting this particular life choice.

What's with BKP's obsession with sex and homosexuality. Sounds like a closet case. Why not worry about feeding the hungry, taking care of the sick, etc?

longgone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's with BKP's obsession with sex and
> homosexuality. Sounds like a closet case. Why not
> worry about feeding the hungry, taking care of the
> sick, etc?


Yeh, homosexuality was such a big deal to Jesus.

Packer sounds completely justified. Didn't the Savior dwell on homosexual preaching and condemnation of gays?

No, he didn't, at least not according to the four gospels. In fact, the only two sexual issues Jesus touched on according to those sources were divorce ("don't do it") and adultery ("Go Thy way and sin no more"). There is another line about cutting off one's hand if it causes one to sin which many believe to be about mastaurbation, but Jesus, in fact, does not spell that out.

In the New Testament, most of the attacks on homosexuality come from the letters of St. Paul. Apparently, the Christian convert had a lot of sexual hangups--he writes with absolutely no knowledge on not only homosexuality, but also bestiality and sexual relations inside marriage. We now know much (but not all) of what St. Paul said to be completely inaccurate and harmful to both those who follow his advice and their victims.

Here I am!

I haven't heard the talk yet. I'll listen to it now.

Screen name--go away. We don't need people like you here.

My TBM daughter most certainly listened to it and she didn't say a thing to me when I got home. I went to visit some of my siblings today. My "ex" is in Vegas with his new boyfriend. I'm so EXCITED FOR HIM. This one seems to be working out well. I'm hoping for the best for them.

I'll post more when I'm done listening. I wrote to Packer years ago about this issue--and I got a really rude letter back. I finally realized he was berating me--he didn't want to really deal with the issue at hand. That letter always gave me a dark feeling (like someone else just said) and I finally burned it. I couldn't understand the "dark" feeling coming from an apostle of God. Well, now I know.

Didn't "Jensen" the church historian just apologize to those people who had been hurt by this issue? We all know that is bull. It has been 26 years since I got married--and the tone of the message has NEVER CHANGED.

What it does is it brings back some of the pain--some of the complete confusion I had over this f*cking issue. It nearly destroyed me. I KNEW--I KNEW from the very start that my "boyfriend" at the time COULD NOT CHANGE--but they kept telling me he could. I married him KNOWING he couldn't change. I hoped he could "control" it. It was such a difficult issue--it really nearly destroyed me.

BUT--when I finally let go of the church teachings, it became SO SIMPLE. It isn't complex at all. Gay is gay. My ex was born gay.

OF COURSE--God "wouldn't do that to anyone." What he wouldn't do is ask someone to change who they are--ask them to "perform" the impossible.

I really don't know what I believe--I tend to believe in a higher being--but not sure just how or what.

My father told me before I told him my ex was gay (but my dad had figured it out already)--he said, "I studied biology. Gays, transgenders, etc., were born that way." (He also wasn't too TBM.) BUT he asked me right from when he found out my ex is gay--he said, "You wouldn't marry him knowing he was gay, would you?" One of the last conversations we had about this before he died was about that very issue. I said, "Yes, the leaders told me it was my job to save him--that is why I married him." My dad was FURIOUS. Then I told him about Packer's letter. He said that if I still had it, he would take out a full page ad in the SLT and publish it.

You know--I sat here today working while my daughter was listening to conference and I was thinking, "I really miss the music." I was thinking, "I WISH they really did have the answers for life." What a bunch of pompous asses they really are.

I have to say this, too--I have a close acquaintance who I've known all my life just recently "come out" to me. She wanted to know I understood my ex and that I no longer believed in the LDS church before she told me her situation, though I had pretty much figured it out. I am one of the few she has known all her life who she really come out to--and she is older than I am and I'm not spring chicken. Many of her family members don't even know. I felt privileged that she told me.

There are times I think I'm recovered--I don't have to come here anymore and I don't have to talk about it anymore. I have to keep talking--IF THERE WAS NOT ONE OTHER THING THAT WASN'T TRUE ABOUT THE CHURCH--THIS ONE ISSUE IS WHAT MAKES IT COMPLETELY WRONG FOR ME. I have lived it. I'm not even gay--and I have lived it.

This makes me so angry--I think it is time for another letter to Packer . . . and let the chips fall where they may.

Sorry--to take up so much room--but was this talk given this morning? Sunday morning?

My daughter was supposed to have tickets to the session this morning and she begged me to go with her. I take note she didn't want to go with her mormon friends--she said she didn't want to spend half a day with any of them. I agreed to go. I try to support her in her journey (found I've gained more ground this way). So--she didn't pick up her tickets soon enough and they gave them to someone else. I COULD VERY WELL HAVE BEEN THERE during the talk if it was this morning. I would have had to get up and walk out--

Like I said, I'm going to pen another letter to Packer. Not much--as he won't read it. AND I will need to resign as they will most certainly come after me to ex me.

Joseph Smith was a prophet! DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM

TBMS love this stuff. They think he is a lone voice of bravery. His rhetoric was awful...negative and downright ugly.

I just don't understand why the church keeps talking about this!(he said, we won't give up!)

so many other things to talk about.

they need to stop talking about morality and porn and homosexuality...no one lives a better life when lectured on how awful the world is and how awful they are doing.

so glad to be out of the church...

That is so very sad and pathetic--but worse than that, it is dangerous to the happiness of so many people in and out of this evil church. "Evil" might seem extreme, but I figure I can vent here if nowhere else. Promoting hate and misery, at least, is evil.

After all you have been through, I wish you'd had the satisfaction of walking out of General Conference!

You are a good writer. Perhaps now is the time to write an OPEN letter to BKP and the gay-hate groups, and have it published somewhere, for all to read.

You are not all alone. A high school friend of mine was given the same advice, to marry a gay man to "save" him. He committed suicide.

Too many lives have been ruined by the Mormon cult of hate and lies.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 01:16AM by forestpal.

If Boyd C. becomes the prophet, I will immediately resign from the church. I could never sustain him.

Thank you, forestpal

My daughter will "get it" some day. There are days I wish they had all the answers for life--that there was a path that if you followed it, then life would be "perfect"--I have friends who mormonism works great for (not like they are happy or anything--but they feel secure??). As long as NOTHING happens to your life where they have NO ANSWERS.

When I found out my ex was gay--I've said this before--I kept seeing him in my mind as a monster--this horrible pervert I had been taught he was. I'd call him on the phone (almost every hour--he got weary of it)--and I'd hear his voice and KNOW that he was a good person. What the hell were they talking about? BUT it took me another 20 years or so to finally FIGURE IT ALL OUT. It even took him that long. I do believe it was when I accepted him 100% as he is that he finally was able to accept himself. I see SO MANY GAYS still struggling--married ones, single ones--feeling they are a mistake. The damage this attitude is SO FAR REACHING. I know of two cousins of mine who are gay--(I've looked carefully at each and I know for sure of two) and I see the turmoil they have been in, their families have been in. I am close to both my aunts who have gay children--they have never told me they have gay children, but they watch what happens to us closely (and my aunts have never left the church either), but they are close to me and my ex. My cousins are close to my ex.

I see how just my marriage to someone gay effected my entire family and the relationships I have with my family. I saw the pain my parents went through--especially my dad--over his inability to protect me from what transpired in my life--his inability to protect my children.

I can start feeling nostalgic about the church--hearing songs yesterday as my daughter listened--"How Firm a Foundation"--I was singing this song in church 2 days before I found out he was gay 27-1/2 years ago and when we sang, "I'll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand"--I started to cry. Never did I know what I was heading into. I've never forgotten.

The church STEALS HOPE from gays and their families. I have yet to meet a gay who changed to straight. I have met those who have been faithful to their wives--but at what cost to them and their wives? Most I see who married--cheat on their wives.

To hear this stupidity again after his talk "to the one" is the one that a good friend gave me and then the bishop told me to write Packer so many years ago--NOTHING HAS CHANGED--except he has grown old and pathetic. Like "get her done" said--I have felt recovered lately. I see pictures of these old buzzards and I feel HATE.

I haven't participated regularly here for years, but just have to say, having read this article:
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/article_4fdeecb8-cf3f-11df-81d3-001cc4c03286.html

(1) OMG! BKP! Still??

and

(2) that among all the online footprints I've left in various contexts over the years, I'm probably still *most* humbled and honored to have inadvertently contributed to the "Boyd K. Packer" entry in the Short Topics section of this board! :P Even after all these years, this man is STILL so profoundly clueless and stupifyingly wrongheaded on the most fundamental aspects of his own (supposed) religion!

...On the up side, I didn't even know it was GC weekend until I read that article -- and I live in UT! Woo hoo!