I just found out some disturbing information about something that happened to some people I know. The story is that when this girl was young, she was abused by her brother who was a teenager at the time. The abuse happened ten years ago and was just reported very recently to someone close to me by the girl. The person it was reported to was appalled and confronted the girls parents.

The story goes that the parents found out about the abuse at the time (which had lasted 18 months) and the son was sent to talk to the bishop and got a VERY light repentance. At the time, the father of both children was in a stake leadership role. That is all that was done. The child never received any counseling or medical check ups after the abuse was discovered and the son went on a mission and was married in the temple.

The girl is a teenager now and is having a very hard time with this situation (depressed, suicidal) and that's why she told the person close to me. The person offered to have her removed from the home and live with them (they are a close relation), but the parents of the girl refused. This girl is being told by her parents that if this comes out it will ruin the family and destroy her brothers life. This was also told to her as a child by her parents after it happened which is why she never told anyone else.

What do you do in this situation? I am sick thinking about it as I know everyone involved. I can see how it would be a huge mess: covered up by parents, bishop, stake, etc. But the right thing to do is to protect this child. What steps do you take to make this right? Both for the child and the adults who covered it up? Especially after so much time has past. I am at a loss for what to do, as I am not directly involved. I offered to help out any way I can, but I have never been this close to a situation like this and I'm not sure what to do.

My advise. Everyone needs to put away their pride and forgive and heal. What's done is done and the past cannot be changed. Yes it was sick and wrong. Many paid a big price. Likewise, my yougest brother is practicing a gay lifestye. He claims this starting from sibling sexual exploration. Today, my family is ruined because there is so much damned pride on everyone's part.

What a stupid assed comment!

The only one who paid is the girl, the victim. Personally I'd call the police. At the very least this girl needs to get counselling, and getting the authorities involved might work to that end.

Lillium Wrote:
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> What a stupid assed comment!
>
> The only one who paid is the girl, the victim.
> Personally I'd call the police. At the very least
> this girl needs to get counselling, and getting
> the authorities involved might work to that end.


So What you are saying is only the girl needs to heal? Sorry, but that's a stupd-assed reply.

Saying a victim of abuse need to get rid of pride and "just get over it" is sick, twisted and you very obviously have never been a victim of abuse. NO victim of abuse needs to just get over it. EVER. It is NOT a matter of pride. Counseling, support from friends and family and lots of time are what heal abuse wounds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2011 12:20PM by rosyjenn.

You're right the whole family needs help, but they're not going to get it if all they do is "forgive and heal". Sweeping it under the rug does not help. Telling her she's "prideful" certainly does not help. All it does is keep the victim from getting the counseling, validation, and other help she needs, and protects the perp so they can continue to do it. Since this continued for 18 months, the perp is almost certainly continuing to abuse, perhaps with his own kids.

edmarc Wrote:
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> So What you are saying is only the girl needs to
> heal? Sorry, but that's a stupd-assed reply.

*********************************************
Why?

doxie Wrote:
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> edmarc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > So What you are saying is only the girl needs
> to
> > heal? Sorry, but that's a stupd-assed reply.
>
> *********************************************
> Why?


How about the remoreful brother who might want to repent? How about the broken hearted parents? Everyone needs therapy in this situation.

People should never be called-out or punished for deplorable behavior. I mean, what if they want to engage in such behavior again?

The remorseful brother? Doesn't seem to have expressed any remorse from what I've read. If you don't want something to ruin your life, its best to think about it before rather than after the fact, don't you think? ... Or don't you?

Broken hearted parents? What do they need to heal from? Being a couple of chicken-shit fuck-ups? That's rich!

Oh, and forget about the daughter/victim. Its obviously her fault just because she's alive.

If you're looking for work, edmarc, check with LDS social services. I'm sure you'll fit right in.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2011 12:56PM by Timothy.

#2 for Timothy

Just when I think edmarc is "getting it" he makes a stupid ass comment like this one.

Amen brother.

The girl comes first, period.

And .. "practicing a gay lifestyle." WTF?

Is that like a novice or amatuer gay working hard to make the pros or something?

Timothy

There are so many variables to this. The one that will probably be loudly proclaimed is that the boy is Satan's spawn, and the girl will never have a normal life. Both ideas are too simplistic.

Not all abuse is the same. If this girl is having a hard time dealing with it a decade later, then it is certainly a big problem, but could be more from the damage that the parents caused, than the brother.

Like most things, sexual contact as a child is on a continuum, with one side of the continuum not damaging at all, and the other side horrifically damaging. And there are a thousand points in between.

If the contact is unwanted, it's gets worse on the continuum. If force is used, it's worse. The larger the power difference is, the worse it is. The more it is shammed, the worse it is. Make it have to be a family secret, the worse the shame is, etc. All those types of variables help decide where on the continuum of not damaging, to horrifically damaging it falls.

Believe it or not, most people have sexual contact as a child that is not damaging. For some it is called, "playing doctor" or "I'll show you mine if you show me yours." It is normal and is generally not damaging at all, unless caught by an adult and shamed.

When there isn't force or coercion, just mutual curiosity, it's usually not a big deal at all.

Have one person want to do it, and the other not want to, and it gets into a problem area. Have one protest, and the other force it, and it becomes worse. Physical pain makes it worse, threats make it worse Etc.

Shame is also one of the very damaging components. Take for example just a friendly game of playing doctor. It likely has no harm at all. Now have a parent walk in and find out, yell and make a huge issue out of it, spank the child and shame them, then it does become damaging.

Even an older child to a younger child doesn't necessarily have to be a horrible, and take decades to recover from sort of thing; depending of course on what exactly happened, and how it was dealt with.

So we don't know what happened to this girl, and where on the continuum it falls, though some will act like it is all one thing, and is the same thing that they experienced.

If the girl was shamed (very likely from the description) wasn't listened to, told to keep it in and never talk about it, that in itself will cause harm. Family secrets suck for the victim.

If it had been reported at the time, the brother would have likely been removed from the home, even if the sexual contact was on the not damaging end of the scale. More shame, more guilt for the "victim" and a huge problem in the family.

If he was a brutal, forcing, inflicting physical pain and degradation type of abuser, he would likely have been removed from the home and put in Juvenile Detention. And that would have probably been best in that situation.

We don't know how old of a teen he was, and if it happened a decade ago, and the girl is now a teen, she was somewhere between 3 and 9. Was it a 9 and 13-year-old? Or a 3 and 18-year-old? Where on the scale was it for being fairly harmless, and horrifically destructive?

We can't really say what should have been done, and what should now be done, without knowing that information.

Sibling exploration doesn't necessarily mean the brother is going to be a pedophile adult now.

In many places the statute of limitations for sex crimes is X-amount of years after law enforcement learns of it. If they never heard of it, it could still be opened. If they did hear of it, it's too late now.

If it wasn't on the more harmful side of the scale, they probably won't touch it a decade later, and both people being children at the time, and with the perpetrator being an adult now. If it was on the horrific end, they may look into it, but would have to charge him as an adult of course.

I doubt that what should happen IMO, will happen.

Counseling for the girl, with a competent therapist who deals with sexual abuse issues should certainly be done. At some point, family counseling is warranted. Then family secrets and shame can be laid out and dealt with.

Depending on what the abuse was, the parents may have caused the more of the damage.

I hope for the girls sake, it was sibling experimentation that was made worse than it needed to be by the parents, not horrific and painful, forced abuse.

How the family reacts to it now will have more of an effect on how long this will take to heal probably, than the sexual contact itself will, unless it was towards the horrific side.

Even if it was on the horrific side of the scale, how the family reacts now will have a huge influence on the long term outcome.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2011 01:23PM by DNA.

edmarc

Your brother is probably looking for "reasons" he is gay. I doubt it was about sexual exploration as siblings. That is what I thought, too, about my ex. There are many people who have things happen to them (I have some people close to me who were raped by other men in their teens and ARE NOT GAY)--that is an "old wife's tale."

What I can tell you about your brother's situation is that it is "doable"--like I said yesterday (and I haven't been back to read any replies)--15 years ago, I hated my ex, and if ANYONE has a reason to hate someone, I DID. He treated ALL OF US HORRIBLY. He did ABANDON his children. They considered him more like an "uncle"--they even stated that if something were to happen to me that he didn't want the responsibility of raising them. He really did put me through a hell that nobody should ever have to go through.

Now--we are the best of friends and he has a good relationship with his children.

Your brother DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE GAY--to ask him to change from being gay is to ask him to "disappear"--

Again--I could go on and on (as everyone knows on this board--I'll tell you again, get the book "Perfect: The Journey of a Gay Mormon." I'll also suggest that you contract Carol Lyn Pearson--and read her book, I believe it is called "No More Good-Byes."

There is healing to be had.

AND I agree with other posters--THIS GIRL is the ONLY VICTIM here. She needs HELP and it seems the only way the family is going to be forced to face the music is if she reports it.

There is a VERY TBM family who I know where the brothers molested the sisters--all were involved. One of the brothres was sent home from his mission when it all came out and the courts were involved. There is no healing until this girl gets some help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2011 01:19PM by cl2.

cl2 Wrote:
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> edmarc
>
> Your brother is probably looking for "reasons" he
> is gay. I doubt it was about sexual exploration as
> siblings.

I don't have the reference with me, but it was in my human sexuality text book. In the U.S. most males have had their first sexual contact with another male.

It may have been just I'll show you mine if you show me yours, but for most males, the very first thing was with another male.

And only about 10% ended up Gay. It's not really a determining factor.

Seriously? Are you a troll? Either way you are totally IGNORANT of what this is. Yeah, right. Forgive. Well, she is trying to deal with what happened first, then try to heal. Forgiveness is a long ways off, especially since she is still living in an abusive situation.

I hope you are just an idiot and don't really believe what you said.

Dumb

Sorry, this was in reply to post way up top, my keyboard is messed up!!

The girl no doubt feels that her emotional and physical well-being were sacrificed for her family's perfect image and her brother's ability to move on in life. This is very wrong. She will have to fight feelings of worthlessness and resentment against her family for the rest of her life. She needed to feel like someone cared about HER and not just her brother.

They are sacrificing the daughter in order to protect their son.
Don't tell, don't think don't feel is the way dysfunctional famlies operate.

But this is not something that can be swept under the rug.

At the very least the girl needs longterm counseling.

It's presumptuous to tell a victim they have to forgive and forget.

True forgiveness comes from a heart that's healed - and this situation is a long time from being resolved.

This girl needs to know that she matters and what happened was not okay. The boy, no matter where his is in life at this stage, should pay a penalty to society and to his sister.

jayen Wrote:
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> This girl needs to know that she matters and what
> happened was not okay. The boy, no matter where
> his is in life at this stage, should pay a penalty
> to society and to his sister.


And why should that penalty be? Should he go to prison for the rest of his life? Should he commit suicide? At what point is there forgiveness for this perpetrator? Never?

Is this abuser a hopeless case piece of society scum that has no redemption? That is the way society treats them.

Yes, he should go to prison for life. Suicide would save the taxpayers some money, though. Sexual predators are ALWAYS repeat offenders, no matter how many times they go to prison. Do you want his kids to be abused by their own father? Even if he has "repented" and moved on, do you want to bet his kids' safety on that?

Sorry for basically repeating what you just posted. I was actually writing a very long, very angry post, & decided against it.

No. There is never forgiveness. Things like this don't 'just happen once'. The perp is definitely scum. He probably has other victims elsewhere.

Your reporting will be anonymous and they will know what to do. It should have been reported years ago when both the girl and the teen could have received proper counseling.

At this point there is a suicidal girl who is going without help and a adult male who may very well perpetuate sexual abuse throughout his family.

At the very least it will force the parents to get their daughter into counseling.

There is no easy way out of this, because a lot of people will have to accept how badly they reacted to this, but overall it will be for the best to address it.

I honestly do not know how abuse victims cope.

I had a close friend whose father was high up in the church as well as a state legislator. He was also a major general in the army. There were six children in the family (five boys and one girl). Dad was too busy making a name for himself to be at home and the mother was the perfect model TBM wife. (Not much of a mother though)

My friend was sexually abused by her brother who was six years older than her for about five years. From the time she was around seven to age 11. She finally got to where she simply hid from him and the family and isolated herself. They were very active Mormon's but he didn't slow down in his sexual adventures. Since he couldn't find 'sis' he would jump in the car and go after the local girls in the ward.

When he was in his thirty's he personally told me about his sexual prowess and exploits with the girls but he never mentioned his sister). He said that if he could get the girl naked, she would never talk. Basically, from what I gathered from his bragging was that he was raping them.

My friend kept the secret until she was in her thirties and we had become very close. I had started my association with her brother before getting to know her but when he constantly stepped into situations that were appalling to me and bragged to me about them, I finally wrote him a letter telling him I no longer could be associated with him. His sister and I had become close friends by then and so, not wanting to alienate her, I showed her the letter before I sent it to him and let her know I wanted to still be freinds with her.

A couple of days later she shared with me what she had been hiding all those years. It took her over four hours before she could tell it all. With my support, she got into therapy. The therapist pushed her to let the secret out as when the secret is shared, it holds no more power. She confronted her still active, returned missionary, married in the temple (with five kids) brother in a private moment at his place. He smiled at her and said, "so what"?

She also shared it with her parents who refused to believe it and told her to stop making up stories. A couple of her other brothers did believe her but did nothing to support her.

Twenty years later, her parents have passed on. She still went/goes to all family gatherings and pretends her abuse didn't happen. The total disrespect of her family left me speechless. She has finally married but continues goes to annual family get togethers. How do abuse victims do that?

My suggestion is to encourage this gal to get into therapy and spill the beans. If she doesn't, I believe the risk of her suiciding is immenent. My friend was always suicidal before letting the secret out. I think she is over that now but other effects of the abuse linger on and she remains in denial of other issues in her life.

Life goes on. My heart goes out to abuse victims. I am still finding many of the people I am friends with are also victims. Some of them remain in denial or simply have blocked out there childhood memories and I find out about their trama through their siblings etc. I am sure there are sexual preditors in all walks of life but the Mormon church seems to produce them in mass. JMHO

From your posting, it seemd you are reporting third or fourth hand information (in other words, gossip). If you can give actual evidence you should definitely go to DCFS but they are less likely to act on a fourth-hand rumor.

Now I promise you, one of the posters on this thread (not me) is a practicing clinician...

Now you would be wise to put a lid on that kind of advice since I'm doubtful it's a subject you're familiar with, and you don't offer any alternatives...

The dynamics involved as described are particularly typical of dysfunctional "families with secrets," and if the girl can be led to get some help, it may well spare her a lifetime of suffering (and drawing others into her dysfunction, who may be devastated as well).

If this was ten years ago it's probably past the statute of limitations, plus it sounds like the brother was a minor at the time.

For the victim, counselling, and NOT from an LDS it's your fault for having a vagina services.

No victom should be expected to shoulder the entire burden this family's (and clergy's) shame. It is not hers to bear, and is totaly unfair and devestating to her personal sense of self. She should be in counseling and this situation should be reported to child protective services. She is still a juvenile and im sure CPS would take an active interest in the case. I hope she receives the support and understanding she needs.

This happened to my former bishop's family. Their daughter went to live with several different families in the ward, and the rumor was that she was depressed and suicidal. They real reason was for her to get away from her pedophile older brother. He was the bishop's son, so anyone who knew kept quiet.

As a result, this pervert was free to try to molest my little pre-teen girl, as she slept in her sleeping bag at a church camp-out. when she screamed, many of the kids saw what was happening, but the bishop and other leaders threatened the kids not to tell. My daughter didn't tell me until years later, and five minutes after she told me, we were out of the cult for good.

The repulsive bishop's son went on a mission, returned and got married, and has daughters. He is living in our ward while his parents are mission presidents, and he is Elder's Quorum Pres. Usually pedophiles don't change.

I was tortured, beaten, and verbally sexually harassed by my own older brother. As Anon puts it:

"The girl no doubt feels that her emotional and physical well-being were sacrificed for her family's perfect image and her brother's ability to move on in life. This is very wrong. She will have to fight feelings of worthlessness and resentment against her family for the rest of her life. She needed to feel like someone cared about HER and not just her brother."

That's how I felt. My parents denied that there was anything wrong with my brother, and they wouldn't rescue me from him. He was given the right to do whatever he wanted to me, whenever he wanted, until I learned to defend myself. Whenever I kicked my brother, to get him off of me, he would throw a terrible tantrum, and my parents would punish me. Still, punishment from my parents wasn't as bad as a beating from my brother. I left home a week after I graduated high school, and never returned, because my brother remained living at home until my parents died. A couple of times, at family reunions, he put his hands all over my body, and he spied on my daughters and nieces while they were changing clothes. I can't--won't--visit my family anymore, because he is always at the center of things. He always makes sexual comments to me and my daughters on the phone, so we don't talk to him, either. He never got married and I'm divorced, and he says that I and my daughters will all be his wives in the hereafter. This sick cult puts some sick ideas into people's heads.

My biggest pet peeve with the Mormon church is that they excuse, forgive, and actually enable males to abuse females. Ugh!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2011 01:31PM by forestpal.

It should be one that fully understands the legal, reporting mandates and statutes of limitation, etc.

Someone needs to help her see how she has been wronged, by whom (looks like by many) develop a plan to deal with each issue starting with the perpetrating brother.

She needs a counselor that will know if and when to go to the authorities, and/or how to confront the abuser(s).

Does that make sense?