I guess I should start this off by saying that I go to church every sunday and hold a mildly important ward calling. Despite the fact that I don't believe a think, I still can't believe I'm writing on this board. I feel so naughty. Isn't this something that you can lose a temple recommend over? (Yup... I hold a recommend as well).

For the past 5 or 6 years I have felt like the biggest hypocrite because I completely lost my faith and can't bring myself to tell anyone. Around that time a few things started not making sense to me.

1. As an object lesson (teaching 16 year old sunday school) I thought it would be fun to get a couple of other classes together with the measurements of the ark and find out how big it was. Lets just say that it's a lot smaller than I had expected.

2. I thought it was really weird that there are large portions of the king james bible in the book of mormon.

3. Watching pres. Hinckley on Larry King weirded me out because most of his answers were non-answers. It was a crucial period in my life and I was so excited to hear him preach to the world and testify.

Actually... I'm gonna stop this and sum up. A bunch of things hit me all at once and I was not able to cope. I tested the waters and actually googled some slightly anti-mormon things.

My world was flipped upside down very quickly. My mind was in a state of chaos. There was an inner battle that consumed me. I allowed myself one day to look up anti-mormon topics and it devastated me.

I read a few books like "God is not great" and "The god delusion". The god delusion by Richard Dawkins is the most concise book dismantling the concept of god. It was amazing. It's kind of like my bible now.

I have never spoken of this stuff to anyone. I go to church and all of my meetings with a smile on my face but bored out of my mind! It's so weird hearing people talk about the nuances of the church. It's like listening to a bunch of kids argue about the color of dragons or something.

I'm trying to keep this short. I have been an atheist for about 6 years now. Today is the first day I have come to this site. I wasted a good portion of my day of work reading what people have to say. Tal Bachman's words spoke to me. I shook for days. Weeks even. I couldn't sleep. His experience is so much like mine, except he had the guts to do something about it.

Then I read the post by the anointed one. This whole post is to him. I need you! You are not just some jack mormon who got mad at someone at church. You are not a mildly "converted" member who got confused the doctrine. More importantly, you didn't jump ship and move to another church.

You are the perfect person to help me. Please let me know what it was that un-converted you. I need to hear your story.

I apologize for the disorganize brain dump, but I had to type fast and couldn't take the time to make sure this all makes sense. Maybe one day I'll write a bullet list of the reason why I don't believe. If anyone cares.

I also request from others logical reasons why the church is not true. Smoking guns. Thanks.

gilgamesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I also request from others logical reasons why the
> church is not true. Smoking guns. Thanks.


Joseph Smith lied about it all. He had two other versions of the first vision, prior to the one he lied about a decade later that the church now latches onto as the only one.

I made myself follow the LDS church because I thought God and Jesus told him in person to do what he started. It was a lie. And if God didn't really tell him to do it, he just made it all up.

It was such a relief to not have to force myself to do it anymore.

Smoking gun: No Isrealite DNA has ever been found in pre-Columbian Native Americans.

I could have written this. I was you. I'm merely a year or two ahead. I was important in the Church once, at least I thought I was.

You'll be ok. It's a lot to take in. I compare it to being Truman Burbank and realizing you've been in a dome your whole life, and you go, "holy #%&!."

And to expand a little on what dapperdan said about Pre-Columbian Hebrew DNA, not only has it not been found--despite what the BOM and Joseph Smith used to say about the ancestors of the Indians--what has been found has been DNA seequences that are closely related to the inhabitants of Siberia...

No, there haven't been "pefect matches," and the dates, timing, and route taken are still matters for debate, but the science is clear on their origins...

I wish you well...

gilgamesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
You are not just some jack mormon who got mad at someone at
> church. You are not a mildly "converted" member
> who got confused the doctrine. More importantly,
> you didn't jump ship and move to another church.
>


I know it probably wasn't meant this way, but this statement came off a little insulting to those of us who may not have had such a similar experience to yours or anointed one's.

Just sayin'.

Think about it: the foundation of Mormon culture, as opposed to the doctrines, began with God his Almighty self putting down the sincere truth-seekers who followed leaders who suffered greatly for their love of truth.

It is not only ok to put down the paths of others in the Mormon culture and to make gross assumptions about their motives, it is required (see "Court of Love").

Our brave truth seeker will learn from being here among friends what it's like to respect an atheist when you are a believer and to stop judging others in order to generate some self-respect. He will find the reward of living an authentic life will be his OWN self respect. Then he won't feel a need to put down the reasons other people leave the church, when he so obviously hasn't yet moved his own integrity to number one priority.

If I left the church because someone offended me by molesting my toddler, who are you to judge?

If I left the church because I felt nauseous every single Sunday and didn't exactly know why, who are you to judge?

Welcome to RfM, truthlover, because here you will get competing truths from equally admirable posters. It will be up to you to decide your own path--and there's absolutely nothing wrong with joining another church or not joining another church. Isn't that nice?

Welcome to American culture, glad to have you!

Anagrammy

I'm really sorry about my comments. I had no idea they would be read that way. I was not trying to put anyone down at all. I was just trying to let him know that his story is so relevant to me that I wanted to hear more from him.

i repent ;)

Didn't offend me personally, so nothing to worry about there :) I just wanted to gently point it out to you just in case.

Again, welcome to the board. Hope you are able to find what you seek. Let me know if I can be of any assistance, I'd be happy to share my story with you :)

Pull up a chair and stay awhile :)

...kind of an asshole.

I hope I didn't scare you off gilgamesh. You're very welcome here.

but rather one that we've all faced: we have awakened and there was pain and a rebirth and now we are different. But we look the same, we talk the same, and no one knows a pole shift has taken place inside us.

We immediately see those around us in illusion, seemingly happy little parade stompers all marching to the drummer who is lying. We see our children singing "I am a Child of God..and He has sent me here" and they're only three with shining eyes--what a wonderful God to send me to this wonderful Earth! And your wife tucks her arm into yours and says, "Aren't we lucky we'll always have them in eternity? Aren't we, honey?"

It is a sign that you are a loving man that you hesitate before blowing the brains out of that scene. You know your words will bring a look of horror to your wife's eyes and you will see her shrink away from you physically, as if you suddenly sprouted horns. She will say "How can you do this to us?"

Of course you don't want to hurt those you love. I certainly admire you for that and I hesitated to tell my own children, because I had been taught that the church was "all they had", that "Iron Rod" in an evil world. But what if this is also a lie. What if the gentiles are not evil god-refusers? What if the world outside of Mormonism is really great? Could that be true? Well, yes. They lie about that as well.

Don't worry, Gilgamesh. You are exactly where you are supposed to be. If you could have pulled it off, jerked them out of Mormonism earlier, you would have. You haven't been ready. You have taken the next step when it was the right time for you--you have come here. We all welcome you with a smile and no one thinks you're spineless for caring about the impact of your new beliefs on those you love. We are not judging you and you can stop judging yourself.

Now, about moving forward. There are people here who have pondered and waited and then have successfully navigated the treacherous waters which lie before you. They have shared with us the very words they used to explain to a loving spouse that the man she fell in love with has changed in a major way. It took great courage for them and as you read of their efforts, and the advice of others, you can take heart. This can be done. You can free your family and they will come with you if you take your time and you are patient.

There is no rush. You will know when you feel ready and we are here for you 100%.

Anagrammy

Dude,
The "smoking gun" has been right under your nose all along.
Look no further than the LDS scriptures.

2Ne5:21
Jacob3:5
Alma3:6

My favorites.

>More importantly, you didn't jump ship and move to another church.

And that would be wrong in what way?

Oh, yes...

>The god delusion by Richard Dawkins is the most concise book dismantling the concept of god. It was amazing. It's kind of like my bible now.

I really do not think that is what Professor Dawkins intended when he wrote his book...

matt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >More importantly, you didn't jump ship and move
> to another church.
>
> And that would be wrong in what way?
>
> Oh, yes...
>
> >The god delusion by Richard Dawkins is the most
> concise book dismantling the concept of god. It
> was amazing. It's kind of like my bible now.
>
> I really do not think that is what Professor
> Dawkins intended when he wrote his book...


He also is not the ultimate authority on god, religion or history and he is far from infallible when he gets outside his field. As far as joining another church, there is nothing wrong with that if it is what you want. Nothing wrong with not joining either.

when he said on multiple occasions that either the First Vision was the greatest event in human history or we were all engaged in a great fraud. Basically, if the First Vision is true, the church is true. If it's a lie, the church is a fraud. My smoking gun was finding out that it didn't happen the way it's taught in the church today:

- When Joseph Smith wrote the History of the Church in 1835, he failed to mention the first vision. His mother, who carefully kept diaries and records, didn't mention it in her biography either.

- There is no documented proof that Joseph Smith taught about the first vision before 1835. None of the diaries of early church members recount hearing it preached or taught. The first vision went unpublished until 1842

- There are multiple accounts of the first vision. Seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ is a fairly important event - Why couldn't Joseph Smith tell a consistent story about it? The only one in Joseph Smith's own handwriting is different than what is taught today and only says that he saw Jesus and his sins were forgiven him. Similar accounts of such visions were common in the area and published in the newspapers of the day, and happened to other people.

- Joseph Smith, despite being commanded by God to join none of the churches, joined the Methodist church in 1828.

- Joseph Smith later taught that God was a spirit in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants - but the first vision accounts of today say that God had a body. What's that about?

Anyway, I could go on but the fact that they were lying about the first vision, their "all or nothing" standard of measurement was really all I needed. Sometimes leaving has been hard and confusing and upsetting but I feel more peace and happiness now than I ever did as a Mormon. Once I worked through the questions in my mind and was sure, I've been so much happier. Good luck to you - post here whenever you need information. The people here know so much and have access to so many good resources that I've always been able to find what I was looking for with their help. Here are a few links you might like:

http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_questions.htm

http://packham.n4m.org/101.htm

http://packham.n4m.org/satan.htm

http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm#didntexist

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

I think you're underestimating many of the board members. There are former bishops who post here, people who were active believers and participants for decades, people who attended the temple dozens, even hundreds of times.

You say that you've been an atheist for about six years. What's keeping you in the church, if I might ask?

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,74120,74194

Also, board member FreeAtLast posts really great, concise summaries of the major problems with Mormonism.

Stick around long enough, and you'll see a lot.

Welcome to the boards. In addition to what has already been said another smoking gun is the church notion of "prophet."

Joseph Smith had the balls at least to lie to everyone that he saw god.

Ever hear another prophet say that? Did Hinkley when asked?

Nope. This is supposed to be god's church headed by Grandmaster MC Jesus H Peepants Christ Himself. But he can't even be bothered to show himself to anyone. Guess his church isn't that important to him?

And I got what you were putting down about the God Delusion. The missionaries weren't too happy to see that prominently displayed on my bookshelf.

Wah. Wah.

all the history, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, the D&C, the leaders.

I think the more important and interesting story is why you are still going to church after this long. There are undoubtedly good reasons and I'd love to hear them.

The process of leaving starts at disbelief, but it takes a lot of time to redesign your life. Where are you with that?

it was all BS I realized that if I didn't handle it all properly I could lose my family. So I didn't say anything directly about my unbelief to my wife. Instead, I took it slow by gradually bringing up various absurdities in the church and then didn't say anything for awhile. Things like the Noah story or the Church's ambivalence about evolution. Forcing toddlers to sit through Sacrament mtg., etc.

After two years she confided that she was having doubts. Praise Jebus! Two months later we, and our three kids, were out and we've never looked back. 11 years now and lifes been great even here in Happy Valley.

Bottom line: Take it slow. Decide what's most important to you and then do it. Good luck my friend!

I don't have very long to write this post, so hopefully this comes across a little bett than my first post.

Firstly. I appologize for the rude comment about joining another church. I don't intend to offend anyone. I was rushed and didn't think it through. What I meant to say was that his thought process is more inline with mine and therefor I relate to it better.

I currently go to church because I'm a spineless coward who can't bring himself to devastate his family.

I'll write more later. Sorry again for any offenses.

You're here aren't you? That took courage.

Only you know your family situation. And If you have been lurking you know the advice is to GO SLOW! Make a strategy then carefully proceed. Lot of folks here have the experience you will need. Use it.

I think people tend to feel much more trapped than they really are. That's the nature of a cult.

I don't know your family situation, but if you are single, you have your walking permit right now.

If married, take it slow like my husband did (Socrates2). I don't think he ever really thought I would see the light. But little things added up and eventually got me thinking. The thing is that the church sets people up to expect a la la land of happiness, spirituality, unified community and temporal blessings for obedience. But guess what? There is real life, too. Real life forced me to reevaluate my beliefs.

I suggest you read Enigma's story. (search on this forum for his name)

Don't worry too much about the "hurt feelings" of the believers on this board. Along with their superstitions of Deities and Immortality, they seem to have retained their Mormon Persecution Complex. They love preaching against Atheists as much as doggin' Mormons. I understood exactly the points you were trying to make. I also am confused by people who think that they're "liberated", yet have simply exchanged delusions. Isn't knowing how to distinguish reality from fantasy FANTASTIC?! I feel like I wasn't a real Human Being until my liberation from superstition. Leaving Mormonism was really great, but it was not complete until I exchanged the burning bosom/whatever-makes-you-feel-good method for the scientific method.

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't worry too much about the "hurt feelings" of
> the believers on this board. Along with their
> superstitions of Deities and Immortality, they
> seem to have retained their Mormon Persecution
> Complex. They love preaching against Atheists as
> much as doggin' Mormons. I understood exactly the
> points you were trying to make. I also am confused
> by people who think that they're "liberated", yet
> have simply exchanged delusions. Isn't knowing how
> to distinguish reality from fantasy FANTASTIC?! I
> feel like I wasn't a real Human Being until my
> liberation from superstition. Leaving Mormonism
> was really great, but it was not complete until I
> exchanged the burning
> bosom/whatever-makes-you-feel-good method for the
> scientific method.

Oh, brother. How tolerant you are. I'll bet you would be upset if a believer were that condescending toward you. Just saying.

Stop paying and obeying a hoax.

Stop going to church and playing their stupid games.

Problem solved.

Congrats on making it this far!

Your story reads almost exactly like mine: I held a somewhat "important" calling when the spiritual and logical claims started to fall apart. And Tal Bachman's posts really spoke to me, as well.

When I finally had the guts to read boards like this one, the two issues which doomed my testimony were:

1) Polyandry and Joseph Smith's manipulative stories he told to prospective wives. If you don't feel like wading through Todd Compton's book, read the biographies of his wives on this website

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/home.htm

If you have a heart, it will break.

2) Book of Abraham. Nothing convinces me that Joseph Smith was a fraud more than the discovery and modern translation of the scrolls. Since the Book of Abraham was fabricated, so are many of Mormonism's unique teachings, and there is no reason to think the other LDS scriptures are authentic either.

P.S. - I'm still attending as well for the family's sake, but doubt I can keep my sanity much longer. . .

I'm so sorry you are going through such turmoil! I just want you to know that there are a lot of people on here that know exactly what you're going through and this site is a great support system! I was a completely active member, BYU grad, I even believed all of it until one day I decided to do what you did. I wanted to know why we were not allowed to look up "anti" stuff so I did and I found out about the Book of Abraham. That was the beginning of my way out. HOWEVER I felt guilty for years! Even though I knew everything was a lie! And that's because the church programs that in you.

I just wanted to refer you to a couple of resources that have helped me tremendously. I have read quite a few books and one of the best ones, I think, is "No Man Knows My History-the life of Joseph Smith" by Fawn M. Brodie. It's very well documented and accurate.

I know you said you are atheist but this website has helped me to the point where my guilt is finally gone. So just check it out. It's www.hotm.tv and watch the 2006 first episode. Shawn McCraney was Mormon for 40 years, left the church and now has a TV show in SLC. I'm totally addicted to his online shows now.

I finally am to the point where I don't care what my family thinks of me leaving the church because I am at peace with my new beliefs and know that THEY are the ones who are in the dark! Don't worry, you'll get there, it's a tough road but you'll get there. All the best!