What do you think about the Book of Abraham? Google "the lost book of abraham" and watch the video. Let's pretend that Joseph actually had some gold plates. The Book of Abraham fiasco proves that Joseph couldn't translate Egyptian, so why should anyone believe that he could translate the gold plates?

The Urim and thumin was the so called theory. I don't completely buy the fact the JS was able to translate anything at all. I don't doubt that JS was a good philosopher and was able to create a convincing religion.

The urim and thummim being the rock in the hat?

"The Lost Book of Abraham (full video, low quality)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

And here is another one I like, This one about facsimile one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK5oZUrVOlw

I'll have to admit that I'm not an egyption scholar nor do I understand all the "dogma" of the LDS faith. I've just been going by my intuition and common sense.

Trying to determine what is true and what is false by using "intuition" and "common sense" is far more likely to produce false conclusions than if you dive in, head first, and take an honest look at the mormon church's foundational claims.

For example, how many version of the first vision exist? How do they differ? What year was the 1st Vision Story actually published? And how many copies of the 1st vision were actually written by JS? And how does this (one) copy compare to the version the modern church promulgates?

http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm

I'm going to make another suggestion--this is what I've told quite a few people when they are as torn as you are.

Quit going to church for a while. Quit reading ANYTHING to do with the LDS church. Go about your life. Given yourself a VACATION from all of it--thinking about it, participating, researching. Tell yourself that you can go back in a month, 2 months, a year--but for now, you need a vacation.

For me, it was getting away from the weekly indoctrination that was the clincher. When you keep going back and getting yet another dose, then you are being programmed. I still have to stop and shake my head to clear out the cobwebs when I go to a funeral or something. When my daughter went back, I remembered all the 'good' I felt there, but then I would remember the bad and I'd feel the DARK. Even contemplating going back is DARK to me--my daughter wants me to go back and she has NO CLUE what she is asking of me. I have a hard time even setting foot in a mormon chapel. They used and abused me and chewed me up and spit me out--and they didn't give a shit.

I went inactive as my ex was ex.sec. and cheating on me with other men and the bishop told me he would be the next bishop. I knew if I went inactive, he wouldn't be. I still believed, but I'd had enough of going to church authorities for my answers about GAY--they had been SO WRONG so far. So--for 10 years or so, I was just coasting--I'd go sit on the couch now and then trying to find what I thought I had found there before and it was just empty--DARK. And one day--it just all fell apart. The programming died. I could say more, but if you want to hear more, e-mail me at colleen84319@yahoo.com

As someone else stated in the other thread--try seeing your gay brother for who he is instead of labeling him. I had a hard time with that, too. I saw my ex as a monster, but when I would see him and hear his voice, I KNEW they were wrong. The gays in my life are the most loving wonderful friends I've ever had.

TAke a break--take a vacation--and what I definitely have learned is (and I believed it for the forever family business, too)--I feel much more at peace about "family" if there is an afterlife than I ever did as a mormon. I lost both parents 2 years ago--and I don't worry at all about where they are or if I'll see them again. If there is an afterlife, I will see them again (I like to believe there is).

Il2,

I appreciate you insights. But I have a question for you. Is you bitterness at the church itself or at the hypocrites who betrayed you?

.

The edmarc character is just filled with mormon cliches and phony "arguments".

Why do you think they are phoney? I asure you I have genuine concerns about the church. There is nothing phoney about that at all.

You've yet to raise a valid point and even admit you're no "expert" or "scholar" on the evidence presented you.

Just and endless game of cat and mouse.

Timothy

while he is clearly still ingrained in the church... there may be hope for him yet ...I hope!! :)

I think it took some guts for him to come here and stick around for several days despite some challenging feedback that he has gotten. I didn't see Cl2's post as bitter, but there was a time in my life when I might have. One aspect of Mormon programming is that if something doesn't ring with the church's praise it's considered anti-Mormon. A close correlary is that if you speak your truth about your Mormonism experience and it doesn't ring with the church's praise, you are "bitter."

I have gone from thinking that edmarc is a troll to thinking that he is sincerely searching for some answers, and I give him some credit for that.

I like Cl2's suggestion of taking a vacation from church. Even after I stopped believing, going to church continually reinforced to me that the church was worthwhile and that spending my time in it benefitted both me and the church. It benefitted me with friendships and with opportunities to help people, and it benefitted the church (my ward, at least) with a sorely-needed alternative perspective on some things, like equality (for women and gays) and a more realistic view of history and scripture. Many people in my ward appreciated that and found it to be a breath of fresh air.

When I finally quit going, I gained some space to put everything into its proper perspective. For one thing, I realized that my participation in the church gave it credibility, because there were people who thought, "well, if Sophia can believe in it, given what she knows, then it must be true, or at least it must be worthwhile." It used (and sucked up) my energy for its own purposes.

For another thing, I found that I loved Sunday mornings when I didn't have to get up and put on pantyhose and heels, but instead could prepare a leisurely breakfast and read a book.

Mormonism works well for some people, including most of my relatives and a lot of my friends. I have no need to dissuade them from what seems to make them happy.

I think, though, that edmarc is struggling with some things that are bothering him about Mormonism and is sincerely looking at whether or not he should continue to believe, and for that reason I hope he feels welcome enough here to stay and ask his questions.

For you, edmarc, you might want to consider what kinds of things former Mormons find truly offensive. Some of those things include:

--they left because they were offended (in other words, for petty reasons because someone wasn't nice to them)

--they left because they couldn't live up to Mormon standards (in other words, they were weak and tempted and wanted to live a sinful life)

--they can leave the church but they can't leave it alone (nevermind that they don't get left alone, but rather are repeatedly urged by relatives or former ward members to "come back")

--they are angry or bitter (as if we should just be peachy-keen with the idea that we were lied to for decades and wasted large parts of our lives and money on a phoney organization)


Not every criticism is born out of bitterness. Sometimes criticisms are simple statements of fact, and the bitterness lies solely in the eyes and ears of the beholder.

I don't buy it for a second, sophia. Look at edmarc's rude and insensitive response to sariahleah's post:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,84370,84370#msg-84370

"But it is a sin" edmarc heartlessly insults the OP in accordance with cult teachings. He later suggests that those who promote gay equality should ask Boyd K.K.K. Packer for his advice on the matter as if the aforementioned Charlatan 'O' God is an authority on such things.

Edmarc has hi-jacked thread after thread by towing the party line. He refuses to respond to genuine inquiry and tosses off genuine response.

Where, exactly, does this guy need to be cut any slack?

Timothy

Well, you may be right. I hadn't seen his posts on that particular thread, and I agree that they are particularly insensitive and thoughtless. I can understand his homophobia much better than I can understand his response to sarialeah. After all, people can debate whether gay people are "born that way," but sarialeah was unquestionable "born that way." How can anyone, even a believing Mormon, consider someone's physical birth status to be a "sin", or to "pervert the way of the Lord," as edmarc said farther down in the thread? I don't know how even a Mormon becomes that bigoted and judgmental.

My reference to "cutting him some slack" had to do with his statement about Cl2 being "bitter," not to his homophobia, which I find very obnoxious indeed. I hope, for his brother's sake as well as for his own, that he will take some steps to educate himself about homosexuality. The Mormon church has better attitudes about that than he does, and there are few bars lower than that.

When I was young and indoctrinated, I was somewhat homophobic, though I always considered it to be none of my business. Then I met some gay and lesbian people and found out that most of my preconceptions were wrong. Then I did some reading and found out that far from being "unnatural," homosexuality is "natural" across many mammalian and avian species. It is "natural" because it occurs in nature. Hopefully edmarc will learn that, and maybe he can even teach his family about that so that they can get over the division their bigotry has caused.

So anyway, I'm not going to cut him much slack on his homophobia, but I guess I'm still willing to cut him some on his tendency toward mormonspeak when it comes to stereotyping those who have left.

Just more skeptical of edmarc than I was yesterday ... which ain't sayin' much.

Timothy

edmarc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is you bitterness at the church itself
> or at the hypocrites who betrayed you?

Can you tell me the difference between the church and the hypocrites?

Once you realize the organization is a lie by lying hypocrites, it's hard to tell the difference.

Jesus Smith Wrote:
> Can you tell me the difference between the church
> and the hypocrites?
>
> Once you realize the organization is a lie by
> lying hypocrites, it's hard to tell the
> difference.

I do believe that there are genuine well intended people in the church, naively maybe. I can't believe everyone is dishonest and a hypocrite.

It has to be people IN THE CHURCH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2011 02:41PM by MJ.

No disagreement there.

I think you missed the irony and/or sarcasm in MJ's statement. One common defense of the church is to say, "the church is perfect but the people in it are not." That is a diversionary tactic that shifts blame for the church's faults to its members, when it fact, most Mormons are decent people who try their best to do what is right.

You would have a hard time finding very many people here who left the church because they were treated badly by its members, and it trivializes their reasons for leaving to suggest that they did.

IMO, MJ was making that point: Mormons think it HAS to be the members' fault, because it can't possibly be the fault of a dishonest, self-serving hierarchy. MJ can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the post was dripping with sarcasm.

Asking cl2 if she's "bitter" because of hypocrites in the church is very mean spirited and insulting. In fact, it's very typically Mormon from my experiences.

Have you considered that cl2 has worked through her bitterness and that her anger at the CHURCH because it was the hiarchy the created much of the mess in her life with their stupid prejudices (which, oddly enough, are just like yours). The CHURCH is what almost destroyed her life -- and it part that was because this supposedly family oriented organization is so frightened of happy, monogamous, married homosexuals that they'll create a sham of a marriage just to try and prevent it. Something seriously wrong in a system that claims to love families and then creates situations where families are sure to fail.

Rebeckah,

Let's be honest here. I do believe that my discussion genuinely offends you. why? I have my opinion just like you do. I often feel like there are very few rational conservative people left who are now bigots but consider themselves only upholding their moral principles. I feel sorry for you.

"Let's be honest here. I do believe that my discussion genuinely offends you."

You would be correct in that belief.

"why?"

Because I believe you are simply attempting to sow discord and throw out the Mormon party line. Because your opinion appears to allow you justification (in your own mind) to be rude and insulting to others. Because I think you are absolutely lying about questioning the church but are simply saying that so that people will lower their skepticism to your posts. I could be wrong, but that's how you come across to me.

"I have my opinion just like you do."

Problem is, you have your "opinion" regardless of the facts. Your opinion is not based on evidence, research or reality, merely on your own nasty mind. It's not something that brings respect out in there real world where logic, knowledge and evidence are given weight.

"I often feel like there are very few rational conservative people left who are now bigots but consider themselves only upholding their moral principles."

I have no clue what you're trying to say here.

"I feel sorry for you."

I don't think you actually have the emotional capacity to feel sorry for anyone but yourself. You have been deeply offensive. You've been offensive in your descriptions and analogies of homosexuality and you've been offensive in your arrogant and condescending belief that you actually have some right or privilege to question a personal choice in faith that another individual has made. YOU have no position to question whether or not ANYONE has left a church for the "right" reasons. You don't even know the difference between right and wrong. You don't even embrace your own choices and own them. I despise the hypocrisy you show.

edmarc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do believe that there are genuine well intended
> people in the church, naively maybe. I can't
> believe everyone is dishonest and a hypocrite.

That's not at all what was said. Let's review your words:


> Is you bitterness at the church itself or at the hypocrites who betrayed you?

"Hypocrites who betrayed" is the operative phrase. I said, what's the difference between a false organization and the hypocrites that keep the lies going?

That in no way implicates the victims (ordinary members) caught in it. We weren't talking about them by the "hypocrites".

I remember going back and forth like you are now.

It isn't true. JS said the papyrus was written "by (Abraham's) own hand." It's a funeral text dated much, much later than Abraham.

But, it must be true. My parents wouldn't have lied to me.

But, it isn't true because JS "married" other worthy men's wives, and clearly D&C states the reasons for polygamy and this doesn't fit.

But, it must be true. I married in the temple and my family's sealed to me for eternity. I can't give that up.

And, so on. But the clincher for me was when I learned about Fanny Alger and Martha Brotherton. I've been a child advocate for many years, and one brutal question was staring me in the face. "Would a prophet of God have acted like that?"

The answer shouted "no" and it all quickly tumbled after that. I couldn't deny it was a farce any more.

and I don't know you at all and I wish you the best whether you stay in the church or not. Whatever you do is entirely up to you.
You can have whatever beliefs you want. The thing is, if you are having questions you need to investigate them yourself there is lots of information on the internet and people have given you lots of good links. No one can "guide" you out of any religion each person's spiritual journey is his or her own. You seem to want the people here to manage your journey out of Mormonism but folks are pushing back because that is not how it works in the real world. You need to read/study or not. Go to church or not. The choice is yours. Or if you choose just take a break from it for a while and get some fresh air! If you choose to investigate there is no getting around studying for yourself.

I have been studying scriptures, reading the latest church handbooks, and reading this RfM forum. At this point, I have not made a decision to leave the church. I've only started to address my concerns about some of the lastest practices the church has adopted. I'm trying to see what greivances people are having with the church and see if they are congruent to mine.

... you effectively reduce folks of the LGBT persuasion and most other RFM participants to mere lab rabbits.

Folks aren't here so you can test your pet theories, edmarc. They're human beings with actual feelings who seek safe harbor in which thay can freely express their emotions without some goddamn arrogant-a**, ignorant a** mormon reminding them why they left.

If you're here to see if the grievances people are having with the church are congruent with yours, which I doubt, that's just fine and dandy. I just don't see how spewing homophobic vitriol accomplishes that. Please keep your mouth shut on those particular issues. You're simply not qualified and its quite insulting to most board participants.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2011 04:04PM by Timothy.

I told him four hours ago to increase his learning curve or shut his ignorant pie-hole.

He chose to keep the ignorant pie-hole in play. Now he's upset because someone told him he was a hypocrite and a bigot. People like edmarc can't handle the truth. They only want people to tell them what they want to hear.

There is no question that the longer you are out of the church, as in inactivity at the very least, the stranger you will feel by the way church feels. Even when I stayed active, certain things bothered me. At my very core, I could never accept the fact that the church is the only way that families can be together forever. Hearing that made me physically angry, like you have no idea. Since God gave us all a conscience, and it doesn't jive with Mormonism, that's all the proof I need that the church is impossibly not true and corrosive to people. Even my own father tried to discount my love for my mother because I wouldn't be with her in the after life anyway, so why does it matter? Conditional love? Only in Mormonism.

I'm completely with you on the family togetherness issue.

Now our family is divided because of our different viewpoints. I too am trying to use my conscience for my future in or out of the church. I likewise am not comfortable with some of the latest practices and starting to feel like a stranger there with their peculiar ways.

The trek is a perfect example. I want no part of it.