One thing that confuses me is that if the church is not true, why do the apostles do what they do? Their jobs are brutally time consuming. They spend most of their time traveling, waiting in airports, sitting on planes, etc.

1. They seem to be smart. Surgeons, scientists, etc. You'd think at their level they would know if the church is true or not.
2. Do they get paid much? Even if they do get paid... they give up all of their time so being filthy rich wouldn't be that great.
3. Power. This is the only reason that makes any sense. The accolades of peers. Constantly being held up on the shoulders of others. That can't be worth it, can it?

...or the church is true and they know something I don't.

#3 Power

Yes, it can be worth it. People who have achieved success in one area of life (e.g. wealth) sometimes will pursue other areas. Look at Meg Whitman - why would she give up being a well-respected CEO, rich, to run for governor of CA? Makes no sense to me.

Seems like people in religious positions get an even greater feeling of power than from money or fame. After all, they are God's spokesman on earth - how much more powerful can you get than that. It must be an incredible rush for them to have countless numbers of people waiting on their every word, to obey it. That's more power than any politician ever gets.

JF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> #3 Power
>
> Yes, it can be worth it. People who have achieved
> success in one area of life (e.g. wealth)
> sometimes will pursue other areas. Look at Meg
> Whitman - why would she give up being a
> well-respected CEO, rich, to run for governor of
> CA? Makes no sense to me.
>
> Seems like people in religious positions get an
> even greater feeling of power than from money or
> fame. After all, they are God's spokesman on earth
> - how much more powerful can you get than that. It
> must be an incredible rush for them to have
> countless numbers of people waiting on their every
> word, to obey it. That's more power than any
> politician ever gets.

Good example. She didn't even vote for 10 years. Don't think she cared about politics.

Another reason is adoration. They are treated like royalty wherever they travel.

Dave

Yeah, for sure the power. I also wonder if when they are called to that lifetime calling at the top of the ladder, if they do not live the law of consecration, hand it ALL over in return for their needs and wants in this life being met, ensuring that if they ever left, they would leave with nothing. Just a thought, have no idea really.

But it seems that most of the apostles come from fairly wealthy or at least very upper middle class backgrounds, so I don't think money is really a motivator. I think it has more to do with power and social status.

Or is that just what they tell us?

As with any MLM, the rewards rise exponentially at the top. I don't think they want for anything.

I don't doubt they are busy doing the "Lord's work"

Yup. Power is the only thing that makes sense. Are there other reasons I could be missing?

I work directly with the bishop in our ward. He is super busy all the time. The salary would have to be HUGE to merit the amount of service he renders.

I know an area authority personally and he is always in a different city setting up a new stake or other things. The money can't be worth it. What good is a yacht if you never get to be on it?

Power, adoration or self-delusion. That's gotta be it. More reasons would be welcome. I'll be posting a few more questions later hopefully people don't mind.

They are, in one sense, perpetual adolescents running from the truth about themselves...

JMHO, but I think that's a kinder analysis than one suggesting they're all overtly crooked and know it...

From what I see of Monson and Packer, both strike me as stark raving bonkers, self-deluded sorts...

Uh ... how about sitting on the boards of many mormon owned large corporations and getting filthy rich.

That's a wonderful perk if you ask me.

+1 Power and $$$$. Once you know everyone is on the take, they have to take care of you to keep you silent.

Having been an Apostle, President / Prophet, Seer and Revelator in an offshoot group, I can say it is mostly about status. It's cool to be looked up to and never have to have been a quarterback. The office inspires the same sort of respect and hero worship.

Secondarily, power.

To be fair, I only got into it to be of service and enjoyed that very much. The selfish benefits are listed above.

It's because we had been groomed all our lives for it. When the time came, we fell into the role. It wasn't even a decision. Up until recently, Mormon leaders have come from certain families and were all related to each other. They've been groomed all their lives to be upper echelon leaders. Monson never even served a mission, but he was bishop by age 22. These are the princes of Mormonism. These are the guys who enjoy the fruits of Mormonism and do none of the work. They are leaders, because that's what they were groomed all their lives to be - Mormon royalty.

Read Steve Benson's stories. He and his extended family used to enjoy all sorts of privileges. When he left the Church, he got an audience with two sitting apostles to discuss his concerns. There's no question in my mind that he would have been a General Authority by now had he stayed in the Mormon church.

Any links to steve benson's stuff?

In the earlier days of TSCC, it didn't have much money nor many members to speak of, so there wouldn't be much power in those positions back then. I think most of the apostles truely believed because they'd been assimilated into the Morg collective. Information and culture were more tightly controlled.

Since things are much different these days, I wonder about now.

I'm not sure why to single out Mormonism. What about the pope? And the "popes" of other religions?

Up into the late 60s most church leaders no doubt believed.

It probably all ended with portions of the Book of Abraham being returned, and the resulting problems.

Note that by the mid 80s a remarkable directional shift was being felt in the morg. It's not our parents' Mormon church anymore.

Why do the GAs stay?

Where else can you wheel and deal in secret sessions and direct the flow of that much money without accountability to the public?

Hugh Nibley was right in one thing - he pointed out that power is a greater motivator than sex.

Kudos, money, perks.

Yes, this is an interesting question, and one I always thought supported TSCC back when I was TBM. Even now, I honestly still believe that the apostles really believe. They know they haven't seen God, but not every apostle is supposed to and they aren't supposed to talk about it - so even they wouldn't know directly that none of them have. By the time they are apostles their entire lives and all of their futures have been completely invested in the church. So, I think their capacity for belief in the face of whatever counter evidence is immense (and yes, I do think their position and all that comes with it is massively reinforcing to these beliefs). Also, coming from a background in evolutionary biology I tend to think of this as somewhat of a selection pressure. That is, only a certain kind of man is chosen as bishop, then stake president, then mission president, then GA, then apostle... Those are a lot of steps to sift out people and so many times to have their own worldview reconfirmed to them over and over again by likeminded individuals. So, hard as it may seem to believe from the outside, I really do think they are mostly die hard believers. Even when they don't see God, I think their belief in the holy spirit revealed through their feelings is sufficiently strong that they believe they are in contact. The reason I think this is that I've served in a bishopric for awhile after I quit believing (social pressures and trying to work out a graceful way out since my wife and all my family are very TBM) I found it excruciatingly difficult to persist in a lie. Before I had been a very good speaker and teacher, after I quit believing I couldn't do it anymore. I don't think the apostles could do what they do unless they convinced themselves what they were doing is right. So, I personally think they (at least most of them) are self-deceived, rather than being willfully and knowingly deceptive. It is so easy for us as humans to believe something because we want it to be true, especially if our community reinforces it strongly. I used to believe so strongly - now can't believe how I didn't see all the contradictions and counter-factual claims. But I really didn't and I was pretty smart - and I know tons of super smart members who don't see it either. Anyway, that's what I think.

I do also agree with Leah that it is much more difficult to be ignorant of all the problems now with so much available than it was in the past.

Interesting point. I noticed that I still feel the "Spirit", a glow when I sing certain hymns, as a witness to me in my bosom, that I have done the right thing by leaving. I get goosebumps when I consider how close I came to staying in the dark. It really was a miracle I escaped, only with the help of...

Oh. I forgot, I no longer have faith. Errrr, so what was it?

I agree with you--they do believe they are so speshul, called and annointed, above criticism, going to join Jesus as a special witness...blah, blah because like so many egomaniacal celebrities, they believe their own press clippings.

But the funny part is, alone in the hotel room, they look in the mirror knowing that in their case, they are FAKING it, because they really haven't seen Jesus and haven't heard the voice of God saying "Hail fellow, well met," or whatever they're supposed to hear.

You look at them looking at each other with "loooove." It's the Emperor's New Clothes. One day as they are lovin' it up in their harmonious meetings, someone is going to say, "Give it to me straight Brother, you never saw crap, right?" or some ecclesiastically PC version of that. And that GA will slowly nod his head, then drum his fingers, his Rolex tap-tapping on the table, and some other GA would say, "You just said you never saw Christ." And he'll say, "That was a misunderstanding. I never said a thing..." Oh, to be a fly on the wall if and when they ever have an honest conversation that's not about the money, the cashflow, and is all about the facts, not the faith.

Anagrammy

D. Michael Quinn in his book, Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, stated that Joseph F. Smith's income went up 500% when he became prophet. He was on the board of numerous corporations owned by the church. With the church financials closed we really don't know who gets what and if someone like the spokesperson made a statement about this he or she would lie. Look at how they lied about how much money was spent for Prop. 8.

My opinion, but I think these guys kids, family etc. benefit a lot from the GA being a Ga. I remember somebody posting about a family they knew who donated land for a church parking lot. The church was never built in the location and the donated parking lot became condos or something similar. The family asked what happen to the chapel when condos starting going up. They eventually found out that the land was given to a nephew of one of the GA's to do his development project. WTF!

My understanding is that the President of the church makes in the neighborhood of a couple of million a year and the ga's make 6 figures.

NOBODY knows where all those BILLIONS of $$$$ are going. BILLIONS.

That alone should make every Mormon lose their lunch. A Mormon could reply to me: "Yeah, well YOU dont know where that money is going, either."

My response: "Neither do you. That's the point."

Job security, free college education for family, free travel, free cars, free food and people doing their bidding.

Compare their lives with the real apostles lives of Jesus and these men have it EASY!

claims by faith -- it's the power of the spiritual witness. I know people who have complete faith in the beliefs. Not a question, not a doubt, and serve as a sacred duty.

The best way to understand these men and the believing members, in my view, is as a generational, cultural, familial, societal,ritual, traditional religious tribe as that is how it still functions. It was cemented by Brigham Young in isolation in Utah in the 1800's.

The top leaders: GAs including Quorums of Seventy are predominately men with roots back to Joseph Smith Jr and Brigham Young with unwavering loyalty. And, that is how it will continue, in my view.

They serve, in my view, with the same dedication as any other leaders of long established religions and as such, are revered and respected by the believers. My background, as a convert, gives me some insight into that kind of dedication which rubbed off on me as, at one time, I wanted to be a Music Minister in the Christian Church, but I joined the LDS Church and changed my plans.

For the leaders of the LDS Church: it's their home, family, life. It's what they know, and it's not likely any of that will change.
Whether they believe it all as literally true, or as a God Myth, it really doesn't matter as they are dedicated life time leaders that are, in my view, sincere, and won't jump ship.

What do they get out of it? Maybe it's the same as other religious leaders, especially Christian leaders -- being chosen or called by God to serve their God and Savior.
It works for them.