I was fascinated by grant palmer's memo. I don't believe in the total disbelief of the q of 12 and first presidency. I think what's exciting about this is that a GA doesn't believe in the church. I did a little research to figure out who the ga might be. Palmer said that the ga enjoyed an intimacy with the q of 12 when 1 quorum of 70 existed. There is a problem; the second quorum of seventy was created in 1989 and no current member of the 1st quorum of seventy was called before that time. My theory is that Palmer made an honest mistake. What he was really referring to was the time before the 1st presidency created the position of area seventy. There is only one man now serving called before 1995: Carlos Amado. The church called Amado in 1989 as a GA. The issue with Amado is that he is a member of an area presidency in Central America. It seems that his position might make it difficult to communicate with Grant Palmer; however gas frequently come to the US and own homes here. Amado's position may explain the fact that he only had three meetings with Grant Palmer. I'd bet a dime that Amado is the man in question.

Interestingly, your suspicion is that its a GA who is not a descendant of any Utah pioneers who came to Utah before the American Civil War. In the past there have been speculations made about other GAs now being out of the church who likewise were not descendants of any Utah pioneers. Specifically, I'm referring to Julio Davilla of Columbia and F. Enzio Busche of Germany. I have no confirmation on any of them. But I got to imagine that the cognitive dissonance has got to be strong and stifling for anyone in such a leadership position with so many people "under" them. I spent the first 5 months of my life as an unbeliever just a Bishopric counselor and felt an enormous weight lifted off of my shoulders when I got released from that position due to the cognitive dissonance.

Specifically,
> I'm referring to Julio Davilla of Columbia and F.
> Enzio Busche of Germany.

I have posted here before that I believe F. Enzio Busche is no longer a TBM, but I have nothing to substantiate that. I have only met him twice, and my opinion is based mostly on his book "Yearning for the Living God", but he is not a typical GA. IMO, he is (or was) an impeccably honest man. He was made an emeritus GA while still relatively young and healthy. I was still a TBM at the time, and I thought it was strange he was made emeritus.

Gotta bring this to the top. Props to alx71ut.

Davila left the church. He is a family friend. He lives in Mexico with his then secretary, he hates the church.

Something that occurred to me this morning. I think Ezra Taft Benson was a believer from the way Steve Benson describes him. I'm not sure they could all be unbelievers.

In October of 1985, when I drew a cartoon showing a stereotypical Mormon P.R. man--sporting a flat top and conservative business suit--on the phone to his secretary, wailing, "Mad bombers, white salamanders, forgeries, con men! Golly darn, Sister Jones, that does it! Get me a cup of coffee!," I got a call from my grandfather.

He told me somberly from his Church office that he had a cartoon in front of him that he wished to read aloud to me. (I later was informed he had been notified of the notorious 'toon by that notoriously humor-gene deficit apostle, Boyd K. Packer).

After repeating the punch line to me, he paused dramatically and asked, "Why?" I was tempted to respond with a "Why not?" but thought better of it (didn't want to get cut out of the will, ya know).

I thought the cartoon was funny enough to warrant a little latter-day laughter. Grandpa thought otherwise. I tried to explain that one of the best defenses in the face of criticism is an ability to laugh at oneself.

He remained unimpressed. His sacred cow had clearly been gored. As a True Believing Mormon, he had interpreted the cartoon seriously and literally--a common problem for satirists. I said, "Grandpa, I wasn't suggesting that good Mormons actually caffeinate themselves when under pressure. But a way we can cope with serious matters like this is to show a sense of humor. It's our best defense."

He responded in a letter on LDS Church stationery, just days before becoming Church president:

"I still love you and encourage you to keep up the good work by pointing out by the cart6on method the eGls of the day. I would just like to suggest that you go easy on the Church."

(To view a copy of the cartoon in question, see: "Ezra Taft Benson: A Grandson's Rememberance; An Interview with Steve Benson," published in "Sunstone" magazine," December 1994, pp. 32-33, at: https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/097-29-37.pdf)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2013 06:14PM by steve benson.

I know almost for certain that more than one apostle genuinely believes too. I see people on here suggesting none of the 12 believe. They're getting ahead of themselves, I know this isn't true.

At the end of the day, if you include all GAs, and also Area Authorities (3rd quorum onwards), there are hundreds of them. I'm sure there's a mixture of testimonies in there.

But what this should teach us is, that we can NOT make sweeping generalizations about GAs, or mormons as a whole. They're all different.

Next time you think about criticizng a GA, just think. Maybe he doesn't even believe!

Would you rather have a cynic and a hypocrite or a naive true believer? I can forgive a true believing fanatic before I can a cynic who keeps quiet and continues the abuse for selfish purposes.

There is no virtue if they do believe. Those apostles that continue to believe that the Book of Mormon is a history are not doing the world any favors. And those that don't believe but stay in their leadership positions are contributing to the fraud. It is a no win either way as long as the church continues to promote it's Book of Mormon hoax.

gaynbm7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I did a little research to figure out who the ga
> might be. Palmer said that the ga enjoyed an
> intimacy with the q of 12 when 1 quorum of 70
> existed. There is a problem; the second quorum of
> seventy was created in 1989 and no current member
> of the 1st quorum of seventy was called before
> that time. My theory is that Palmer made an
> honest mistake.

So you shoot a hole in the Palmer memo and conclude it isn't a hole because he probably meant something else. Are we witnessing the birth of exmo-apologetics here?

People make mistakes. I think that Palmer is a man of integrity. I think it's more likely that he misremembered than that he lied.

I've talked to several Stake Presidents and other lower priesthood holders who are well educated, NOT GA's or 70's, but are smart enough to suspect that all is not as it seems in the world of the LDS church. They keep going with the fiction (notice I did not say lies) because they can rationalize that they are doing good stuff keeping the lesser educated and weaker of the masses in line to a better life by feeding them fantasy and fear. But if you are a GA with your entire life and family vested in maintaining the facade of Mormonism it must be even easier to just continue in the tradition and self-delusion rather than trying to extricate oneself from a lifetime of promoting and then justifying why you went along with it for so long or else explaining why you were so stupid for so long. Saving face is a lot to do with it. I've heard many priesthood holders say, "The church may not be perfect by I cannot find anything better". To me this is just a lazy mans excuse.

Hail to the GA who has the balls to take the heat, legal consequences, and financial hit by standing up for the truth and pulling back the curtain on LDS, Inc. To me they are just a quorum of lilly livered yes men and that's what they cannot admit to themselves what they have become. If they really believed in a final judgment they would be repenting for being at the head of the Morg with all their might. It is because the DON"T believe that they can stay in it in my humble opinion.

Did you consider it might be an emeritus 70?

You may be right. I got the impression from Palmer's memo that he was currently serving.

Yes, you are right, but maybe he fudged because there are so few emeritus that it would give him up in a heart beat.

It would make sense that it would be a Latin American GA. Latinos are culturally more loving in their greetings with friends, hugs kiss on the cheek, than stuffy Europeans that most Mormons descend from. A Latino GA would also be more upset at the fraud than other nationalities since it is their culture the church is destroying with its false history of the Americas. If anyone had a reason to blow the whistle on the church, perks and consequences be damned, it seems like it would be a Latino.

I agree. Culturally, inauthenticity would not be a natural fit. The truth would matter.

Wouldn't that be exposing them to extra scrutiny and possibly cause problems for them?

I won't add to your list of names, but a few years ago, I talked to a close relative of an emeritus GA who doesn't believe, but was trying to fly under the radar because of agreements made and retirement.

My impression was that he's a good man and he doesn't have a way out of the church without losing everything, including money, families, and friends.

It would be a tough position to be in.

I simply looked at public facts and made a hypothesis. I did not betray confidences. You and I have every right to scrutinize those claiming authority from Jesus Christ.

I would add that this ga speculated that the twelve don't believe and Palmer published that. I am doing the same thing.

I think you might be making some assumptions based on his wording that might actually be interpreted to mean something that he didn't mean.

(1) He said that relationships are more isolated now because there are "several" quorums.

(2) He said that relationships between the 70 and the 12 were more intimate when there was only 1 quorum.

(3) He stated that this particular GA used to have "more familiar" conversations with the apostles during 1 on 1 assignments.

You've interpreted (3) to mean (2) (I see no direct correlation) when it could also mean (1) which means that he could have just as easily been called to the 70 prior to the creation of some of the current quorums. Your statement: “Palmer said that the GA enjoyed an intimacy with the q of 12 when 1 quorum of the 70 existed” isn’t true, Palmer didn’t say that this intimacy existed in his case when only one quorum existed.

Based on this, I don't think he was mistaken according to your logic and Amado isn't necessarily the "one", but it certainly doesn’t rule him out.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2013 05:11PM by Mormoney.

Good point. Allow me to make an adjustment. Palmer might have not been mistaken; however we started seeing area seventies after 1995 and Amado is the only GA called before that time. But there are a few called after 1995 that have been around a while. They are also possibilities.

He is retired and lives along the Wasatch front. He was part of the 1st Quorums of 70 at least at one time. I believe he is white from pioneer stock but that I'm not positive of that. Do I know who he is No. But the above is accurate.

And Bar Rafaeli might be my one exception with my wife.