Hi. I'm a nevermo who is married to a TBM. About 4 months ago I came to this site for advice on my son. He is 15 yo and had recently been advanced to the Aaronic Priesthood, was starting morning Seminary classes, dating a Mormon girl, and otherwise had me convinced that he had decided Mormonism was for him.
Those issues are still present, and I remain worried about his future.
I have since been reading and investigating just about every free minute of my spare time. I have read "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder" (my wife wanted me to read that one), "A Friendly Discussion; Mormonism - Pro and Con", the Book of Mormon itself (no, I didn't have a conversion experience), and now I am nearing the end of "Mormon Enigma - Emma Hale Smith".
What I have learned from these books, and a couple of youtube videos by Living Hope Ministeries, has made me more certain than ever before that the Book of Mormon is false and the LDS church has some serious problems.
So here is the advice I am seeking. How do I succeed in getting my wife to read and discover this evidence herself? I know I need to do it with compassion and love. I asked her a couple of months ago to read "A Friendly Discussion; Mormonism - Pro and Con". She reluctantly did and later said, with tears: "If you were trying to sow doubt, then congratulations, you did". I didn't know how to take that. Was she serious? Or just trying to tell me I was a jerk?
So now I want her to, in her own time, read and discover the same evidence I have so far. But I am afraid any effort of mine, no matter how caring and sincere, will be seen by her as trying to ram these books and videos down her throat.
Anybody been through this?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Look at the scenario; you r a nevermo, no skin off your back, unlike us (most of us) had to play the charade of being a good Mo.
You are clean as a whistle.Please do not push her too far with the dirty info, I guarantee you she'll turn against you.
If u have a good marriage take your time, don't worry about your son just feed him regular information about the church.
And good luck

"Look at the scenario; you r a nevermo, no skin off your back, unlike us (most of us) had to play the charade of being a good Mo."

I'm a nevermo too married to a mo. To suggest that there are no issues because of this is naive at best. In my case there were significant pressures from wife and family to convert or at least encourage others(my children) to accept the church. Additionally, questioning the church policies are off limits even to non-members. Granted, I didn't have to pretend to be mormon or believe the crap but it does introduce it's own unique stressors to the relationship. Particularly when children are involved.

You can read stuff she'll want to, if she reads stuff you want her too.

It's a good compromise. If she doesn't want to read more, you won't have to either.

The best advice everyone gives here is "take it slow."

If you have a list just in case she wants to read more, then good.

Leave stuff lying around, and she might pick it up here and there.

I haven't thought this through far enough to call it a good idea, but it's an idea.

Take turns reading together, where you both read and share as you go along. One of her books, one of your books. And have your next book be No Man Knows My History, by Fawn Brodie.

But do one of her books first so she is motivated to play along.

Thanks so much.
Since Mormon Enigma doesn't directly attack Mormon doctrine, and it's a woman's perspective, I would like to offer it to her. Guess I'll just, as softly as I can, show it to her, let her know she can read it now, latter, or not at all.

you might point out to her that Mormon Enigma can even be purchased in Deseret Book Stores (at least I think it can), so she shouldn't be against reading it.

Now is the time to let him sort through material. He is brain washed for sure but there is a few short years left that you can be influential and supportive. Get him a book to read.

Grant Palmer's, "An Insiders View of Mormon Origins" is an excellent place to start. Grant is still a Mormon and was over the Church Education System in California. Before your son goes any further into the brain washing, I suggest you ask him to read and research into the origins of the church. Buy two books, one for the wife, and one for your son. (Maybe one for yourself as well) Read chapters and discuss them. Have fun with this but do it. Time is a wasting.

After reading that book, the door is wide open and their are lots to choose from...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2011 09:08PM by dane.

Second Dane's motion. It is helpful that Grant states plainly that his intent is not destroy testimony but to move the emphasis of the church away from the "only true church" exceptionalism and towards an emphasis on christ and and upon community. He writes as a believer that intends to remain a believer -- this is helpful to virgin readers of highly incendiary stuff. Good luck.

But that gave me courage when I was studying my way out.

But I do think you'll have to be careful about pushing anything on your wife.

I guess my question to her would be "If the church wasn't true, would you want to know?" I didn't make up that question, many here have asked it, and many Mormons have answered that they would NOT want to know. That answer means the discussion is over.

found info you want her to know, doesn't mean she is interested. Likely, the more you push, the more she will dig in.

My view? Concentrate on your marriage and leave religion out of it. You married someone that may be so totally immersed that her beliefs won't change no matter what anyone says. I am married to a believer. I know how that one works! I understand that spiritual witness by faith and how solid it is with many people. I am a convert, I also know how solid it is with other Christian believers as that is my experience.


She has a right to her beliefs which may be paramount and not up for discussion, ever. You married a believing Mormon. She is dedicated, most likely, to raising her children in the religion, 100%. Whether they stick it out, however, is another story. If she has a support system in her family and church, you are outnumbered.

Belief by faith is about an emotional attachment/bond. It over rides reason and logic which generally won't mix with faith: they are like oil and water.

Most religious belief systems are based on supernatural, metaphysical claims and don't require any factual evidence.
The spiritual witness by faith over rides any contrary evidence.

What do you do now ? I think you have a decision to make about how you handle yourself in the family. This is the life you created for yourself. Making major changes are most often extremely difficult and take time for others to adjust. Some never do. Your marriage may survive, it may not.
A lot depends on how you deal with your feelings about the LDS Church-Mormonism. It you become angry, bitter, resentful, it will most likely overflow and be picked up by your family.

I'm married to a believer. I don't give a rats patootie what he believes. It's a non issue. Some of my "kids" and grand kids are LDS, some are not. It's of no concern to me. I purposely take the position that it's their choice to believe in any religion they want and I have no power over that. In my case: it's none of my business. I will respect their rights.

That's how I do it. You'll figure out what will work for you.
My best wishes to you.

We all love to give advice but some folks walk the walk. I strongly point you to her advice.

Get the books, but don't give them too her--did you see the tears? Have them on the shelf and let her curiosity move her when she's ready.

It's crucial that you handle this carefully--sloooooooowly!

Best,

Anagrammy

From a post I did last year:

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." -- Thomas Paine, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, intellectual, philosopher, and writer.

One of the best ways of cracking open Mormons' 'faith' is to reveal to them the fact that Joseph Smith (JS) was a liar, manipulator, adulterer and pedophile.

The LDS Church's section summary for D&C 132, the 'revelation' on polygamy written (down) by JS just over 166 years ago, says:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

According to LDS scripture, two key polygamy "principles" were:

i. A Mormon priesthood holder could desire and marry only virgins who were "vowed to no other man" (i.e., not betrothed to a fiancée, or married).
ii. The first wife (Emma, in JS' case) had to give her consent to the plural marriage.

The scripture in question was D&C 132:61:

"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61)

In the case of 11 women that 'prophet' and Mormon Church president Joseph Smith made his plural wives, they were already vowed to their husband, and as married women, certainly not virgins (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/).

"...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else." The 11 women belonged to their husband.

JS committed adultery at least 11 times (12, actually, when you include his extra-marital affair with teenager Fanny Alger, servant girl in the Smith home; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

The LDS Church has a partial list of the married women, single women, and teenage girls that JS made his plural wives on the church's genealogy website at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Enter Smith's first and last name, birth year (1805) and birth place (Vermont, United States). Click on Search. Then click on the underlined Joseph Smith (Ancestral File 1). Scroll down to see the partial list of his plural wives. Note when he (at age 37) married Helen Mar Kimball (May 1843) and her age by clicking on her name (she was just 14).

JS' marriage to Fanny Alger can be viewed on the church's FamilySearch.org website by entering her first and last name, marriage year to JS (1835) and selecting "United States" and "Ohio" from the drop-down menus, and clicking on Search, then continuing from there.

Why did Joseph Smith make married women his plural wives - committing adultery in the process - when the Lord forbade it, and did so not just once or twice, but 11 times? Why wasn't he excommunicated for adultery?

The Mormon Church and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations that adultery is a 'sin' next to murder and any church member who has committed adultery does not have the Holy Ghost with him/her and cannot receive revelation from God.

JS disobeyed the 'revealed' word of God (directly to him, no less) every time he desired, pursued and married a married Mormon woman. In the case of at least one of them, Sylvia Lyon (married to Windsor Lyon), JS fathered her daughter:

“On January 27, 1844 her [Sylvia’s] only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”. (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm)

In May 1843, JS made a 14-year-old, two 17-year-olds and a 19-year-old his plural wives. The 14-year-old, Helen Mar Kimball, was his youngest-yet plural wife, as the genealogy data on the list of JS' plural wives on FamilySearch.org shows.

One wonders why, of all the single women in Nauvoo who were in their 20s and 30s, JS pursued and married teenage girls young enough to be his daughters and other men's wives.

On July 12, 1843, just two months after JS married the teenage girls mentioned above, he wrote down a 'divine' death threat ("threat of destruction") directed at his first and only legal wife, Emma (who was Relief Society president) if she didn't accept his plural wives, remain with him, "cleave unto" him, and accept polygamy. D&C 132:52 and 54:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [plural wives] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure [virgins] before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law [polygamy].

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/52#54)

How extraordinarily convenient for JS that the Lord was willing to turn a blind eye to his adultery (no rebuke, no revelation that he should be excommunicated), and back him up in his practice of polygamy by threatening to kill (destroy) Emma if she didn't get on JS' polygamy 'wagon' pronto!

According to the 'revelation' on polygamy that JS wrote down on July 12, 1843, the reason for plural marriage was to get virgins pregnant so that they would bear children, thereby increasing God’s glory:

“But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/63#63)

In JS' day, the only way for Mormon women and teenage girls to "bear the souls of men" was to become pregnant through sexual intercourse (human artificial insemination wasn't developed until the 1940s).

Gaining access to females who could "multiply and replenish the earth" was important to JS. In the case of 16-year-old Lucy Walker, whose mother died after the Walker family converted to Mormonism and moved to Nauvoo in the spring of 1841, he separated the teenage girl from her father (by sending him away on a 2-year mission to the Eastern United States) and her surviving siblings (her sister, Lydia, had died only months before of “brain fever”) by placing her siblings with families in Nauvoo and ‘inviting’ the unsuspecting girl to live in the home of ‘the Prophet’ (himself).

“While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

“Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”’ (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)

Not informing Emma of his latest plural marriage and first obtaining Emma’s consent was a violation of the Lord’s commandment to JS: “…if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61).

Secretly marrying Lucy Walker was not the first time that JS did not obtain Emma’s consent (she discovered her husband and teenage servant girl Fanny Alger having sex in the barn and complained to Mormon Apostle Oliver Cowdery, Joseph’s second cousin and BoM scribe, about her husband’s extra-marital affair; Fanny was sent away by Emma because the teenage girl was “was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet”, in other words, Fanny’s swelling womb; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

2. In the BoM, in Jacob 2:24, it says:

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2/24#24)

However, in the 'revelation' on polygamy that Joseph Smith wrote down on July 12, 1843, it says (in verse 1):

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines"
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

How is it that in the BoM, the Lord, who according to scripture is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, condemned as "abominable" the practice of David and Solomon of having wives and concubines, but then contradicted himself in the 'revelation' on polygamy to JS by saying he "justified" (i.e., approved of) the practice?

Answer: When JS WROTE the BoM prior to its publication in 1830, he had only one wife: Emma. But in July 1843, when he wrote down the 'revelation' on polygamy that supposedly came from 'the Lord' (into his mind), he had several plural wives (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/). In July 1843, Joseph Smith had forgotten what he wrote about David and Solomon and their practice of having wives and concubines 13+ years earlier.

3. Quote in LDS Apostle Russell Nelson's article, "A Treasured Testament", in the July 1993 Ensign (the article is online at www.lds.org; use the Search function to find it):

"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Why hasn't the LDS Church taught members and potential converts about Smith's 'magical'-rock-and-hat BoM 'translation' technique? The answer is obvious: Who would remain a member and who would join if they knew the truth?!

Why were the gold plates even needed, since Joseph Smith's 'peep' stone clearly did the job as far as 'translating' the BoM is concerned?! The huge problem is that it says in the BoM (and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations) that 'the Lord' commanded BoM 'prophets' to keep an account of what was going on during their lives as well as teachings and doctrines.

But according to the quote in Nelson's article, there was no gold plate in JS' hat, only the 'magical' rock ('seer' stone) that mysteriously emitted "something resembling parchment" upon which one character at a time would appear. There are 1,150,219 characters in the BoM, which means that it took JS nearly a year (at eight hours per day) of putting his face in his hat and calling out the characters to his scribe to 'translate' the BoM. Why don't church pictures show him doing so?

4. A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPnu0bx3oWg

5. For generations, a fundamental Book of Mormon (BoM) 'truth' was the following: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel;" (ref. http://www.inephi.com/1.htm).

However, in light of DNA evidence of the past 20 years that has consistently shown that the ancestors of Native Americans came from northeast Asia and not from ancient Israel/Judea, as described in the BoM, the LDS Church has officially abandoned its 'truth' - taught to millions of church members and potential converts since JS' day - that American Indians are Jewish in origin (via Laman and Lemuel, who came from Jerusalem with Lehi, Sariah, Laman, Lemuel, and other Jewish family members).

Here is what the Introduction of 19th- to 20th-century editions of the BoM, including the 1981 edition that many Latter-day Saints living today used in church and at home, said (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the PRINCIPAL ancestors of the American Indians."

Here is what JS wrote in March 1842 in a letter to John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat newspaper:

"In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country."

(ref. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c26876e6ffe0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD)

Here is what the LDS Church is now saying (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction)

"...among the ancestors of the American Indians" clearly implies that there were other ancient people(s) who were also the ancestors of Native Americans, which is, of course, exactly what scientists concluded (no evidence exists to support the Mormon idea of Jewish ancestry of American Indians).

The HUGE problem for the LDS Church is that for the BoM to be true, the ancestors of Native Americans have to be Jewish/come from ancient Israel/Jerusaleum, as described in the BoM."

The chief problem with Mormonism is that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Science has proven that the 'keystone' of the LDS religion, the Book of Mormon, is a work of fiction (see the links below for details). Mormonism founder Joseph Smith, Jr. repeatedly failed to relate and even write a reasonably consistent version of his so-called 'First Vision' experience (see the link below). JS kept getting his age, the place, what he saw, and other major elements of the 'First Vision' wrong. Rational people don’t believe a ‘witness’ who tells versions of their ‘true’ story that conflict with versions previously told by the individual. People who won’t use their critical thinking and scrutinize what they’ve been told often do believe ‘charismatic’ types.

According to LDS Church presidents Ezra Benson and Gordon Hinckley in Gen. Conf. talks in Oct. 1986 and Oct. 2002 (online at www.lds.org), Mormonism stands or falls on the BoM being true (historically and in all other respects) and the First Vision having taken place (as per the official church version that has been taught to millions of members and potential converts). The facts are clear: Mormonism falls (the websites linked below provide many of these facts).

All religions, including Mo-ism, are the product of people's imagination (Joseph Smith, in the case of the Mormon religion, with 'spiritual' ideas from other Mormon 'prophets' being layered on during the past 7-8 generations since 1830).

You're not obliged to mentally regurgitate other people's 'spiritual' ideas, what they believe and feel is 'true', and demonstrable nonsense (there's lots of it in cultic Mormonism!).

You have the right to ALWAYS think for yourself and scrutinize what other people, including adult Mormons, have told you is 'true', 'right', 'the will of God', etc. You also have the right to reject all beliefs - religious or otherwise - that are not supported by the facts.

Latter-day Saints fail to understand that truth is independent of what the LDS Church says and what Mormons believe is 'true' when their 'truths' are not supported by solid evidence. Very importantly, their emotions - and emotion-based beliefs - are not an INFALLIBLE guide to the truth.

Here are very good resources that you can study to educate yourself about Mormonism and its history:

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (by former BYU history professor Dr. D. Michael Quinn): http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

The Changing World of Mormonism: http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm

To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

PBS FRONTLINE + American Experience: "The Mormons" (4-hour documentary film aired on PBS in '07 that includes excerpts from interviews with President Gordon Hinckley, Mormon Apostles Boyd Packer and Jeffrey Holland and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and church historian Marlin Jensen): http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

101 Doubts about Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/101.htm

Contradictions in Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/contra.htm

Rethinking Mormonism: http://www.i4m.com/think/

Joseph Smith's Changing First Vision Accounts: http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accounts.html

Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (by genetic researcher Dr. Simon Southerton, a former LDS bishop): http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813

"DNA vs. The Book of Mormon" (ref. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o)

Book of Mormon Tories (plagarisms in the BoM involving two American history books, one published in 1789 and the other in 1805, that were available to Joseph Smith): http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/magazine/pmm_article_full_text/211

The Lost Book of Abraham (more proof that Joseph Smith lied about his 'translation' ability): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

The 'motherlode' of historical info. about Mormonism (including many quoted official church sources, and their references): http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm

Digital photograph of the title page of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon that shows that Joseph Smith was the author and proprietor (he claimed he was the 'translator' of the ancient gold plates): http://www.inephi.com/1.htm

The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM&feature=related

‘Faith-disrupting’ teachings and statements of Mormon ‘prophets’ (after Joseph Smith): http://mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#apostleadmits

How Mormonism 'programs' people and affects their self-esteem: http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

40 fears created by LDS 'programming': http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/fears.htm

If you want a lot more 'faith-disrupting' info., search for posts done by me on www.postmormon.org (I post there as CdnXMo).

The foundation of Mormonism is a fraud - always has been. Start with official LDS info. that 'rocks the boat' of your wife's (and son's, hopefully) 'faith'. They won't be able to mentally discard it in knee-jerk fashion like 'anti-Mormon' info.

Once their 'faith' is cracked open, you should be able to introduce more info. from non-official LDS and non-LDS info. sources. "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" by retired LDS Church Educational System Director Grant Palmer is another resource I'd recommend (ref. http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/an-insiders-view-of-mormon-origins-2/).

Always bear in mind, however, that you cannot control what anyone else thinks or whether they will respect facts at the expense of their beliefs, including their cherished religious beliefs.

In the final analysis, you can only act with integrity to the truth, including your truth. No matter how much you might want to, you cannot force others to think or act in a manner that is congruent with reason. They have to want to themselves.

Good luck!

Thanks for ALL your suggestions. I think I'm developing a "game plan" in my head for how to approach this, not only with my wife, but with my son and, in the near future, my two younger daughters.
The book suggesions are appreciated. I will buy them.
I guess what I've been searching for are the "words" to use when approaching my wife or son.
Suggestions like "If the church is not true, would you want to know", and the fact that the Mormon Enigma - Emma Hale book is sold on the Deseret site are all very helpful.
Thankyou so much.

Review the information on http://www.mormonthink.com about Brigham's Adam-God doctrine and the early leaders stance on blacks NEVER receiving the priesthood as outlined in the Journal of Discourses. This was enough to spark my 32 year old Mormon mind into realizing the history of the church was doctored. After that, everything else came pretty easy.

You can purchase the Journal of Discourses on DeseretBook.com here: http://deseretbook.com/Journal-Discourses-George-Watt/i/4954158

You can see a facsimile of it on BYU's website here: http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=%2FJournalOfDiscourses3

Good luck.

Whoops... attached my post up above. Again, good luck wifemormonimnot. Btw, if she finally listens to you and realizes the lie, don't be surprised if she turns her back on religion completely.

Ugh... whatever. Hope you notice this post up here. =)

Wait a minute - you're not a member, and she is? And that's how it was when you got married? So my question is, why are you trying to change her? You accepted her as-is when you married her.

JF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait a minute - you're not a member, and she is?
> And that's how it was when you got married? So my
> question is, why are you trying to change her? You
> accepted her as-is when you married her.


If you look at the origional post, he was not aware of the cult like status of TSCC, when he made the decision. He is not rejecting her, he wants to keep her, but he wants to rid her of a self-destructive disease. If you had a spouse who was a smoker, and you had no problem with it at the time you were married, but then found out he/she has a history of lung cancer in his/her family wouldn't you want them to quit? Why? you accepted the smoking when you married them?

Are you trying to unconvert her or is she trying to convert you?

She was a non-active member when we were dating. So religion rarely came up and was not an issue in our courtship. For the first four years of our marriage, we went occasionally to my church (in my hometown when visiting my parents), but not hers.
Then, in 1997, after 6 years of marriage, she decided she must remain true to the LDS faith. We've been alternating Sunday's between the LDS church and mine ever since.
The conflict has been heated at times over the years, but nothing like the past 4-5 months. Since mid 2010, she has been getting our kids more and more involved in LDS youth activities. That of course is the main source of my unease.

I'm just curious, did you go through all the missionary discussions? You situation can be a strain on a marriage if she decides to be a TBM. I'm just sayin.

There were no missionary or bishop discussions before our marriage. We married in a non-denominational chapel. Thanks.

I'm not sure if you have read other threads, but edmarc is not out of the church himself yet, so be wary of his advice. He still finds nothing funny about the temple ceremony!

How is your wife's son dealing with this situation?

Even if your wife doesn't listen to you, don't give up on your kids!! I had a hard time growing up in this "church", I wouldn't wish it on any child!

So, it is actually really easy to prove the church is a crock. That's not the hard part. The really hard part is to get your wife to be open to thinking about it.

There is the baby step method:
-what do you think of polygamy?
-what do you think of blacks not getting the priesthood til 1978?
-what do you think of joseph using a peep-stone?
-etc

There is the big question method:
-If the church is NOT true, what will you do?
(Very scary question for TBMs).

There are lots of other ways, to introduce the topic of church problems. I've been on the board for almost 15 years intermittently. The way mo/non-mo conversations happen is as varied as the number of people involved. You really have to gauge this stuff yourself, and out-think the other person.

For me, I tend to sharpen the differences and make people commit to a position. Then I pull the foundation out from under that position. For example, I would use the topic of the Book of Abraham and have a conversation like this:
1. Is the church true?
yes
2. If the church is true, then the BoA is true, right?
yes
3. If the BoA is true, then it is a literal translation from papyri that Joseph Smith was given, and it contains the word of God, right?
yes (if "no" I would put up the statement from Joseph that the BoA was written by Abraham. I would say that I trust Joseph's word more than hers. I would simply state that as the founder of the church, we will be vetting his word, and not hers...AND, if she disagrees with Joseph Smith, then she doesn't really believe anyway).
4. Trap thusly laid, I would present the conclusive evidence that the BoA simply isn't what JS said it was.
5. I would go backwards through these steps and undo all the yes answers.

Then, I'd say "How would you like to proceed?"

That's harsh. But I do not get trapped in any apologetic arguments. I'm not subject to "the holy ghost said it" type stuff, where there is no tangible evidence.

At the end of the day, TBMs have to fall back on faith. Even that is simply a matter of programming. Someone told them, "If you read, ponder and pray, you'll have a nice feeling. When that feeling comes, it means the church is true." They took the challenge, and at the end, out of a need to feel successful, they "felt" or made themself feel, good. Then, they knew...

From "knowing" came a huge, foundational set of activities that inform every decision and every feeling from that time forward. It is a self-perpetuating, and reinforcing cycle with mormons. Do right: God makes you feel good. Do wrong: Guilt...need to repent. Repent: feel good.

Little do TBMs know what a degenerative cycle that is. Also, little to they know how hard it is to break.

Good luck. If you need help with any of the doctrinal deconstruction stuff, this board literally has all the answers.

Like Bob says, there are gentle approaches and harsher approaches. There are even gentle ways of using a harsh approach. You are the one who knows your wife and the state of your marriage and the likely consequences of the kind of approach you decide to use.

You have some things going for you, I think. Because you are nevermo, you are not changing the original terms of the marriage. That is something that many who come here have to struggle with.

By her own admission, you have already "sown doubt," by having her read the "Friendy Discussion." Now you need to encourage that doubt to geminate and take root.

Think a little about what bothers her about Mormonism. Polygamy bothers most women, whether or not they admit it. "In Sacred Loneliness" by Todd Compton is a must, and if she reads Mormon Enigma she might be willing to also read ISL. Keep both books around. Maybe she won't read them immediately, but give her some time. And you definitely want your kids to be aware of them. (In case you're not familiar with ISL, it is the biographical sketches of Joseph Smith's plural wives, and even if she doesn't read the whole book, the introduction alone will clue her in to the fact that they didn't exactly tell her everything in Sunday School and Seminary.)

As for the kids, my suggestion is to push the value of science, the scientific method and rational thought. Take them to the Grand Canyon and talk about the age of the earth. Visit a dinosaur museum and a museum of natural history so they get a clue about evolution. Your son might like to read Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden" or "Demon Haunted World." Also consider "Finding Darwin's God" by Kenneth Miller, who is a Roman Catholic and the author (co-author, I guess) of the most widely-used biology book in the country. He has another book I haven't read with a title about "Evolution, Only a Theory" or something like that. Science is not directly challenging to the Mormon religion, but it undermines it in subtle ways.

A couple of youtube videos also come to mind. One of them is the PBS series "Guns, Germs and Steel." The Book of Mormon is not even on its radar, but it nevertheless totally decimates some major premises of the BoM. There is a book of the same name, which I haven't read, but the videos of the series are available for free on the internet, or I'm sure you could order the DVD, which you might want to do to facilitate having your kids watch it.

When she's ready, watch the Lost Book of Abraham video, which is also available to stream online. It pretty much devastates any notion that Joseph could "translate" Egyptian, even if he had any gold plates.

One of my friends told me about how he went about undermining his wife's beliefs. He was actually working for the LDS church when he figured out it was phony. He got a new job and then did what he described as information on his wife's mental shelf. At first she just put the info on the shelf and didn't think about it. Still, she knew it was there, and he gradually fed her more and more information until one day, the information about Joseph Smith's teenage wives crashed the shelf, and his wife's anger against JS far exceeded his own.

If you are interested in having her and/or your kids be more traditional Christians, consider watching Shawn McCraney's weekly TV show, which is streamed at hotm.tv. He's a former Mormon with a ministry of sorts to Mormons. For some kicks, watch the clips of his interchanges with a caller named John O'Fallon, such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkL9KCBuoNU&NR=1

Good luck. Come back from time to time to let us know how things are going.

Thanks Sophia.
Those are some great recommendations. I'm feeling more confident that, some day, I will have rescued my family from the falsehoods and mental programming.
Your suggestions sound "right on" for what I need to do. I will look at each and everyone of them.
Thanks.

You're in competition against your wife's other lover, the church.

You can either tear down the competition, which introduces a tense, hostile atmosphere, or you can go positive and be the better lover by 10 miles.

Court her and delight her like a man ravished with love for her. Earn her trust and devotion. Then ask one little question about the church, about 4 times a year. I'm sure you could come up with enough questions to last 50 years. Meantime, you'll be having a great time as a married couple.

Why don't you make a deal with them about it? Like, "I'll read the book of mormon if you read this book, then we can all talk about what we learned". That is a lot more fair than trying to get them to see your side without putting in equal time for theirs. I doubt that the BoM will convert you once you know about all the fraud and stuff, but being fair is really important in relationships, and it makes it hard for anyone to feel unheard, too.

If no one is down with that I 2nd the idea of just reading up on it yourself and keeping the books around in case anyone wants to read one.

All great advice. I know I need to go slow with my wife. It has been about 3 months since she read "A Friendly Discussion; Mormonism - Pro and Con" at my request. I have also read one of her books as well as the BoM.
I have patience, and can wait on my wife, but where I'm getting worried is my kids. They're getting more and more involved with the youth activities, at the encouragement of my wife and the ward here, and I worry about the "programming" they may be getting.

If your wife is a generational, cultural, Mormon, her children are seen as her responsibility to teach what she knows re: religion. What you may not catch, right away, is that this is a sacred duty.

In that case, her influence can easily trump yours raising the children as she has a huge support system. You are largely outnumbered.

I have a concern about our rights to mess with other people's religious beliefs in their God Myths. It would be nice if we could all agree, but that's not going to happen all the time. They are based on faith which almost always over rides reason and logic and factual evidences. Faith and factual evidences are like oil and water; they don't mix. Faith in supernatural, metaphysical claims is much more powerful in many cases.

She came into the marriage with her religious teaching from what I often refer to as her "tribe." Will she leave that behind? Will she be interested in looking at anything that is not faith based? You can offer, but there is no guarantee she'll accept how you view her religion.

There is the possibility that she is living her life in such a way to convince you that you need to join her in her religion. If she is like most LDS women, they want a mate to take them to the temple and be sealed eternally.

Just somethings to think about.
You'll figure it out. Either she'll listen to you, or she won't. Then you have another decision to make.

In my case, I have LDS friends and relatives and a believing hubby of 47 years. I changed my mind about my beliefs, but there is no way he will. So, I respect his right to his beliefs, as he respects my right to my beliefs.

We just can't control other people.