I was driving today and I had this huge lightening bolt moment.

I passed a bulletin board that said, "When you die, you WILL meet God" and then there was a scripture reference.

So my big "duh!" moment was this- why does it have to be after I die? I believed in Christianity for a long time. I was a true believer- hook, line and sinker- for about 17 years before I started seeing cracks. And of course it made sense that God could only be experienced in certain ways during this life. But now I'm stuck on this question of "why?"

If God loves us all so much and it's so important that we all accept Him, why is He impossible to prove? I know the standard answer of faith being more precious than knowledge, but seriously- what would be wrong with having tangible proof that God is there?

I'm probably doing a horrible job of conveying my thoughts, but it made sense to me a few hours ago!

Lily, I have had that very epiphany.

Hears my take, and of course its IMO. I reasoned God is huge, incomprehensible. It would be like trying to see a huge universe as a human being. Kind of like an atom trying to relate to a human except on a more larger scale. Or an ant trying to see the milky way galaxy...can't happen (scale is too grand). But the ant can relate in many other ways to its universe. So it is with God I believe. So as you believe or believed Jesus was one reason he did come so that we would have someway of relating to something on our level or scale if you will. That is why God is referred to as the "Invisible" God and Jesus referred to as the face of God.

The other thing I reasoned is that this God also shows us every day of his creation. Keeps the world from being hit with a solar wind that would suck off our atmosphere similar to what might of happened to mars. Keeps the earth at just the right tilt...etc. and yes I believe God perfectly understands science (just in case someone wants to say that's just gravity, laws of physics etc..). In essence we see God in the sunset, sunrise, ocean waves, creations, ourselves, pretty much anything around us.

Here is something you might be familiar with that kind of sums up these two ideas;

Colossians 1:15-16
15 The Son is the image of the INVISIBLE God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him ALL THINGS were created: things in heaven and on earth, VISIBLE and INVISIBLE, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Thanks for making me think of this again. I remember thinking that same thing like a huge epiphany. Interesting to think about.

I am not, in any way, trying to take that away from anyone.

However, that reasoning just feels so man made to me and doesn't work anymore. There are several reasons for this- one being that salvation (heaven/hell) is on the line. I'm familiar with the reasoning that God reveals himself through nature, but really- w/ something so violent as the hell of the Bible I think it's a real dick-ish move for him to play this cosmic game of hide and go seek.

Look, I'm absolutely amazed by the complexity of the eye or the human brain. I love neuroscience and could sit for days and discuss some of the bigger issues surrounding it. There are plenty of things that give me the ant vs the universe feeling. I just feel like it's crazy that God, if he exists, would all but remove himself from our day to day lives here on earth where we could probably use the most help. Going by the traditional and mainstream Christian view of things, once we get to heaven we won't have physical or emotional pain, we won't be damaged by illness or fire or violence or theft. It seems to me that while we need him, God is absent, but once we're in paradise he'll just be hanging out with us and we'll all share a beer and toast to me making it through the big test.

Doesn't make sense to me anymore.

I see your point.

To me, I think the more man made part of the story is the heaven/hell thing being on the line. And that this life is a test. Honestly I don't think God requires anything of us, why would God need anything? The man made churches have been the inventors and stokers of some misinterpreted eternal hellfire (that is a whole topic in and of itself).

I guess my point is we don't wait to meet him some day. We meet him everyday, every second, every nanosecond.

BTW..I also went through a period of my life where I pretty much couldn't relate to God too, so in the same breath I understand where you are coming from. In fact my whole concept of God has changed from the Mormon version to more like the Christian or even Einsteinian version. Not that i have some inspired insight, i don't, and at the end of the day its IMO.

I like the beer part you mentioned ;)

Questioningmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ... I reasoned
> God is huge, incomprehensible. It would be like
> trying to see a huge universe as a human being.
> Kind of like an atom trying to relate to a human
> except on a more larger scale. Or an ant trying to
> see the milky way galaxy...can't happen (scale is
> too grand). But the ant can relate in many other
> ways to its universe. So it is with God I
> believe....

I would argue that a supreme, divine, benevolent, omni-everything being is terribly inept at creation if this is all s/he/it can come up with --- "ants" --- and expect the ant to comprehend and "feel" the universe, then punish those who are unable to successfully do so; I would say this being was a big, mean, loser.

Oh, and leaving the "ants" to determine the whys and hows of his/her/its being on their own? That's just ant-abuse.

Then there is no way you can hold a church accountable for selling the snake oil.

God, Gods, angels, the Devil, evil spirits, etc. - they've all come from people's imaginations. Some are comforting (e.g., 'God' loves everyone), many are fear-inducing (e.g., not attending church makes you vulnerable to Satan's temptations), and plenty have the psychological effect of creating guilt and shame.

You're free to scrutinize all religious/spiritual beliefs and you have the right to reject any and all of them that do not agree with demonstrable/objective truth.

“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.”— Thomas Paine, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, intellectual, philosopher, and writer.

The concept of 'faith' is, ultimately, for the intellectually lazy, people who are too mentally flabby to do critical thinking work. 'Faith' is about respecting objective truths, which withstand scrutiny, less than needing to remain in one's 'warm and fuzzy' emotional comfort zone (by reinforcing one's sloppy beliefs that don't withstand scrutiny).

Sooner or later, all religious people are challenged by one or more realities that do not agree with their spiritual beliefs. Are they going to mentally scurry back into their religious 'safe zone', or will they acknowledge 'faith-disrupting' realities (truths) and mature psychologically? In the final analysis, it comes down to choice. We can choose to psychologically mature or not.

In the past 17 years of the Internet, 100's of 1,000's of people have chosen to mature/grow as a person and leave cultic Mormonism (and other nonsensical religions). Many more will do so in the years ahead.

There's very good online info. about the religious mindset (in the context of Mormonism) and why it doesn't work in terms of personal growth at http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

Humanity desperately needs people of REASON, not faith.

Re. Christianity, you might want to rent or buy the excellent 2005 documentary film, "The God Who Wasn't There" (ref. http://www.thegodmovie.com/).

I think you hit the nail right on the head in your description. And why WOULD faith be so terribly important? Imagine getting to heaven and being told, 'Sorry. We've got plenty of faithers already. Are you a skeptical scientist by chance? We could use a few more of them.'
Any god worthy of the name ought to know what would convince me, and it would have the ability to do it. I'm not going to hold my breath and wait for a miracle, though.
Cheers.

is through faith.

The only way Jahweh will save you in the afterlife is through faith.

The only way Ganesh will save you in the afterlife and bless your family in this life is......


See a pattern here? The only time faith is fundamentally important is when we are just making it up.

The reason for building temples in Mormondom is to put *something* physical behind the faith. "See, there is something physical and imposing and expensive, which proves there is something of literal substance behind all this"

Ditto for missionary work, genealogy, etc - if I make this big a sacrifice for the cause, it can't be made up, because I would be a fool to sacrifice this much for something that is made up, and I'm no fool.

We are the ones willing to admit we were played for fools. At first that stings and embarrrasses. Then it makes one angry. Eventually it just becames a part of who you were.

I've already met Gawd. He's working at Berryhill's taco in Houston and makes a heavenly fish taco! I swear!

Ron

ExMormonRon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've already met Gawd. He's working at
> Berryhill's taco in Houston and makes a heavenly
> fish taco! I swear!

And Jesus is in the Spinach Tamales, for sure!

This is a moment I came to a while ago. I thought, "Okay, so there's this god in the sky, who chooses to remain absolutely invisible. And yet, he expects us to believe in him. In fact, he demands that we worship him, and if we don't, we will be set on fire for all of eternity, or cast out, in the Mormon view."

What kind of SOB is that? Not anyone I would want to worship, let alone believe in. If such a nasty being is a god, then we're all in trouble. It's just downright scary to contemplate.

"Gus and His Friends" at http://packham.n4m.org/gus.htm

Also check "My Lucky Rabbit's Foot" at http://packham.n4m.org/rabbit.htm

:-)

It is HUMANS who infuse religion with fear, shame, and guilt in order to control others. It is HUMANS who claim that “God” will condemn you if you don't do or believe X, Y, and Z. It works! It keeps the sheeple in line.

It also effectively prevents people from exploring religion as a possible source of love, encouragement, comfort and inspiration, completely free of any judgment or condemnation. Can that kind of religion exist?

Clearly you are at a point in your life where you are trying to make sense out of all the different messages about religion that society throws at us. Explore various possibilities, Lily; and follow those things which strengthen and encourage you, those things which make your heart sing with joy! THAT is how you will know your path!

Seems to me that faith is a tough subject to reduce to simple soundbites. Why is it that faith in the sun rising tomorrow is perfectly fine--a given, yet faith in the unknown is not? Wait a minute--that the sun will rise tomorrow is an unknown . . . a probability, but still an unknown!

I humbly submit that my understanding of your epiphany, Lily, is that it is your concept of God that has changed, and not faith or belief. You seem to have moved beyond the brand of Christianity you once subscribed to. Cool. You're maturing, growing up. Good for you. I wish you the best in your journey in finding what you do believe, no matter what that ultimately may be.

And you're hearing this from a Christian.

I, too, was a Xtian for many years, raised in it. But I got tired of waiting for God to answer my prayers, I decided to start praying to myself, cause I got things done. Works WAY better.

you're looking in the wrong direction.

You touched on this slightly in your OP, Lily. The real God is all around us. God is right here, in this life, all the time. All you have to do is live with integrity, and make yourself part of something in this life that is larger than you. God is what connects us to our families, to other people, to our tribe, to society. Heaven is right here on this earth, right now. God is not some anthropomorphic being. God is that part of us that strives to be a better person.

The god or the heaven of the afterlife that religions want you to believe in doesn't exist. The religious god is only there to control the masses.