Today I was thinking about a friend of mine whose son attends a scout troop sponsored by the Baptist church. It's just sponsored by the church - attending it isn't part of the church curriculum. She can be a perfectly fine Baptist and her son never has to go to scouts unless he chooses to. But with the YM in the Mormon church, half the weeknight meetings are termed "Young Men" and the other half are devoted to Scouts. If you are TBM and your son doesn't want to participate in Boy Scouts - Tough! It's not optional, it's not a choice. He'll be considered inactive or semi-active. Even in the Cub Scouts, not showing up at a Wolves or Webelos meeting will cause consternation among the leadership. Once, our Primary president talked in a planning meeting about those boys who didn't care to attend Cub Scouts as "lost boys". This isn't Primary or Sunday School or YM or YW. It's SCOUTS. My daughter can choose to attend Girl Scouts or not, like she can play soccer or be on the swim team if she chooses. Boys in the church have to be in Scouts to be considered active. It really makes no sense.

Of course, none of the Mormon stuff makes sense so ....

It pisses me off too! Both my boys are in scouts; their dad was an Eagle scout and he definitely wants that for his boys. The older one likes it and is putting a lot into it. The younger one thinks it's fine but would be just as happy doing something else instead. There is, if you'll pardon the expression, an almost "incestuous" relationship between scouting and TSCC. I don't think it's good for any one group to wield that much influence over another, and the secrecy & coverups of abuse that exist in the Mormon church can also be found in scouting. A case of "one hand washes the other" (while looking away so as not to see anything).

That which is not permitted is prohibited.
That which is permitted is mandatory.

I never did like scouting. It sucked.

It took me 4 years and much effort to become and Eagle Scout.
1951 21 hard earned merit badges and countless campouts and meetings.
However it was MY CHOICE.
I didnt have to and it revolved around Scouting not "Mission prep."
I feel sorry fo those pooor youngsters who will never have the satisfaction of the TRUE EAGLE ACCOMPLISHMENT!!!

This whole scouting thing really upset me when I was a Primary counselor (I was 1st counselor). I thought kids should have a choice if they wanted to do it or not. The ward Primary president & 2nd counselor were both heavily involved in scouts, & explained to me that Scouting was the 'official' activity program for elementary age & teenaged boys. I just really didn't get it. & yes, boys not involved in Scouts were considered 'lost', even if they were good kids & completely active in church otherwise.

My son hates scouts. He doesn't like to go, well he hates young mens all together. He is only 14, and something tells me he doesn't believe in the kool-aid. It may be because of me, but not sure. His dad is still TBM, and doesn't understand why he doesn't like the church.

He is just so upset that for the 3rd year in a row he won't be going to Scout Camp, first year he was in Germany, last year we were in Florida, and this year he will be at band camp for his first year of high school.

I have recently bumped into some startling information on the internet and have been researching comments regarding the fact that most scout deaths are LDS scouts. OMG, I thought, there's a reason, what could it be? What is the independent variable here?

The LDS church sponsors 17% of the scout troops in America, yet something like 80% of the deaths are LDS scouts. Why? Why? Some scouting leaders suggested it might be the fact that Utah has rougher country than other places. Not true, posted another, a non-Mormon. He said that country wide, regardless of state, LDS scouts died more often than others.

I went on researching and came across a list of all the reasons the LDS scouts had died. It was negligence and bad judgment on the part of adults. I went over the list and read other people's comments. Some thought the LDS Scouts were ill-prepared, or the leaders were inadequately trained. Na. It became clear that it takes more than poor training to walk right by three warning signs and continue on your merry way. Or to ignore signs of dehydration...

A few of the deaths were caused by young boys being too slow and being left behind BECAUSE THEY HAD TO BE BACK BEFORE SUNDAY! OK, now we're seeing something. The scout leaders didn't want to look bad, so they rushed to get back in time. Incredibly, they were willing to leave boys behind in order to speed up the packing, counting on them to "catch up later." Some didn't. Some got lost and some died, but no one connected the dots.

You may have read recently that a North Carolina protestant church denied a couple the opportunity to lead the scout troops because they were Mormon and not real Christians...I wondered if that was REALLY the reason, because I have my own theory.

There just seemed to be a missing piece (to me) and finally I woke up one morning and knew what it was. THE LDS SCOUT LEADERS ARE NOT VOLUNTEERS! They are "called"--with the understanding that it is the Lord doing the calling. Many (most?) of them resent their callings. These negligent scout leaders were Going Through The Motions, phoning it in, so to speak. They had the training, they had the support, they even had the money. They were two missing things: time and a true desire (for some) to be in Scouts.

There is a third element, I feel certain. Impaired judgment. Men who have been taught that others do the thinking. Men who count their salvation in check marks on a list made up by other people. Men who believe you must LOOK good, most importantly, and what's inside is secondary.

That, my friend, is not a good combination for dealing with a crisis in the wilderness. I have share here some terrible decisions that I know about in scouting and you can be sure that for every scout death, there are 50 near-misses.

No one in their right mind should trust the life of their precious little one to a well-meaning scout leader who let's others do his thinking.


Anagrammy

He has worked in Scouts several times. DH is kind of an outdoorsy guy and even though he hasn't done as much training as some adult scouters, he loves the program, camping and hiking with our family and being outside in general. When he gets a calling in Scouts, he rejoices because it's like not having a calling for him - he'd volunteer if he weren't Mormon, like when he coached my son's soccer team. But the last two "leaders" he's had work with him were more or less useless. DH had to do all the work and planning and they just showed up. Anything he assigned them to do or bring was done half-heartedly or resentfully even. He got really fed up once and complained to the then-bishop, who was really into scouting and had achieved one of the highest adult scouting levels. The bishop had a talk with the guy but it didn't help much. You can't force people to care about what they don't care about.

Which is why forcing boys to care about scouting is such a bad idea. Some boys, like my son, really thrive in the outdoors but for others, it's just not their thing and it shouldn't be forced. Like a friend of mine has 3 sons who are very musical and hate scouts. They'd rather be practicing or performing and resent the wasted time in scouts. Thankfully, she thinks music is more important too, for her sons at least, and doesn't pressure them to go when they don't want to. But then, people talk about her for letting her sons be "inactive". It's ridiculous.

And that same lack of caring is almost certainly why boy scouts are treated so carelessly by their leaders. Because the leaders don't really want to be there and just want to get home as soon as possible. It's a shame for the boys who do like scouting because they deserve enthusiastic leaders who care about the program and will keep them safe. Your comment about leaders not being able to think on their feet is spot-on. Mormons are taught to obey, not think, and if there is no one to give orders, they often make stupid decisions. Your research is very interesting - you should try to free-lance it out to some AP reporter. It's news worth reporting.

I sent it to my ex to let him know how serious the situation was, since he's the gung-go scouter who wants his boys to follow in his footsteps. He forwarded some of it along to scout leaders in his ward & they talked about safety rules/making sure everybody understood what to do & what not to do. It was chilling though, to read about all those terrible accidents that could have been avoided!

FYI- BSOA prohibits atheists AND yes--even agnostics too--from participation (both as scouts or as leaders).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies#Position_on_atheists_and_agnostics
-- from wikipedia:
During the membership application process and as a requirement to obtain membership, youths and adults are required to subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to agree to abide by the Scout Oath and Law, which include the words, "do my duty to God" and "reverent". Youths are also required to repeat the Scout Oath and Law periodically after being accepted as Scouts. The BSA believes that atheists and agnostics are not appropriate role models of the Scout Oath and Law for boys, and thus will not accept such adults as leaders.

I guess I was lucky in that I had pretty good leaders and was in a pack and troop where most, if not all of the guys participated. We weren't guilted into trying to be Eagles and it was all very laid back. We camped out alot.

I suppose my experience wasn't the norm.

Why? Maybe so young boys will learn how to avoid the sexual advances of older men?

I've read up on the founder of the Boy Scouts, Bayden Powell. Seems he had a thing for seeing young dudes nude.

I'm so very glad I never got hooked up in the scouts.

Here in england it isnt required so much. But the ritch kids all do it.

Because a Prophet said "Scouting is the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood"

http://lds.org/new-era/2010/02/a-pillar-supporting-the-priesthood?lang=eng

Another thing borrowed and made their own.

I was never required to go. In fact, I stopped going when I was 16, a full 3 years before I went on a mission. Only one officious lady tried to convince me to return, but I was quite clear that I didn't care about receiving the rank of Eagle.

It was the right decision to leave.

Good way to keep 'em in the Morg and associating with like Morgbots.

Good God, their brainwashing never ends.

Scouting was fun and I think it's sad when people misrepresent it to fit their own agenda.



Ca Girl wrote

"If you are TBM and your son doesn't want to participate in Boy Scouts - Tough! It's not optional, it's not a choice.'

Simply not true.

Sorry, we all had to go. It may not be "official church policy." But parents and cultural policy and the bishop's influence was. We were REQUIRED to go.

I know lots of Mormons who weren't required to go. I certainly wasn't. Where do you get your information?

If you had it different. Fine. But that was your experience. Not mine.

All I am saying is that my anecdotal evidence is different than your anecdotal evidence, so perhaps we shouldn't base sweeping generalizations about a group of people on anecdotal evidence. This is something we shouldn't do especially when suggesting that someone else is wrong.

Also, all hail Raptor Jesus. I'll be at your feet during the Velocirapture...

So, yes, let's get on the same page.

I hated scouts but was forced to go. My ward growing up was weird and we had former scout masters in the bishopric who enjoyed scouting.

If they had left it at that- that would have been great. But the bishopric really put pressure on everyone for scout attendance. The ward agreed with this, and I was forced to go, along with every other active young man in the ward--whether they wanted to or not.

After we moved, my parents still forced us to go, and the ward still guilted anyone who didn't attend heavily.

It wasn't until I turned 16 and had a car that I got out of going to scouts, and my parents and I had huuuuuge fights over it.

I was luckier than some. Many parents in our ward made Eagle Scout a mandatory accomplishment in order to get a diver's license. My parents wanted to do that, but were too lazy to enforce it.

That's how I got lucky.

I acknowledged that it isn't church policy for these things to happen, but they DO happen in Northern Utah.

I was forced, and I hated it.

My Brother-in-law turned 18 a couple of months ago. That's when he got his drivers license. He also got his Eagle scout a few months ago.

If you know Utah, you know that the age of drivership is around 16. My brother-in-law actually imposed this upon himself. He was working on his Eagle, was getting close, turned 16 and my Mother-in-law said, "you can get your driver's license now, I know you'll finish it."

But BIL, being the "good stripling warrior" that he is said, "I made a promise, Mr. Frodo. A promise."

So two years later and much making fun of by me, mrsraptorjesus, and others, he gets Eagle Scout and THEN the driver's license.

Painfully true story. ax mrsraptor if'n ye don't believe me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2011 08:45PM by raptorjesus.

I enjoyed every day of it.

Not one adult guitled me about not going scouting.
Though I suppose there are some strange LDS parents out there.

There were many times I was absent.

And I'm glad you liked it.

But I was forced by my parents, the ward, and the bishopric.

That's how it was in our ward.

Not lying either.

When I finally stop being such a disappointment and have children. If my boys want to do scouting, I will totally let them. And if they like it, I will encourage that they continue to finish what they started, as long as they are still enjoying themselves and feel like they are learning.

Then I will be painfully bored at their Eagle Scout court of honor, but will put on a fake smile because that's what good dads do.

it isn't for every boy. But every other week, in our ward at least, instead of Young Men's they have scouts or scouting activities like camps. They are required to attend scouts as much as they are required to attend Young Men's. In other words, they don't have to attend either but the social and religious pressure is to do so. They are both equal in the eyes of Mormons.

This isn't a slam against scouts at all - it's just that it's part of the Mormon agenda like Primary or YM/YW when it should be an optional troop, sponsored by the Mormons. Because it isn't for everyone.

Nothing is actually required by the church. They can encourage, threaten, browbeat, and cajole, but they can't actually require ANYTHING.

(;

The non-morg Scouts around here hold the morg troops in contempt.

Utah is referred to as "the Bermuda Triangle of Scouting."

Nobody has ever asked anybody in my son's troop about religious views or sexual orientation. I know that is the policy; but nobody in my son's troop (including the leaders) cares.

I guess it is "Don't Ask, Don't Care."