TG is touring the UK with his wife in May and will be conducting a number of firesides across some stakes.

My local SP emailed the bishoprics around the stake to publicise this, and commented on how effective this will be in answering some of those 'difficult questions' that some members have and which are difficult to target during the 3-hour block.

Local leaders have also been encouraged to invite members that would benefit from this unique experience and to work in conjunction with a member of the stake high council who has been designated to lead a task force focused on helping disaffected members.

1) I expect to get an invite from my own bishop and I'm in two minds as to whether I would attend - mostly out of curiosity and to see just how openly the really challenging problems are discussed. But then I don't want them to think I'm interested and I'm leaving the door ajar.
2) I think this could backfire by discussing issues that many members wouldn't even be aware of.
3) I've listened to TG on the Mormon stories podcast - he seems like a highly intelligent and articulate individual (so may only connect with a few members anyway) but at the end of the day he simply chooses to believe despite knowing the problems. He doesn't appear to have any particularly unique insight or answers other than the stock apologist ones. I wonder how effective he would be in changing the mind of someone that has properly researched issues?

Is he just speaking or a Q&A?

I suspect just speaking. Although a Q&A could be fun!

I think Givens may be:

1. so delusional that he thinks his "past" research can outweigh the vast amount of evidence against TSCC - both online and in print.

2. so idiotic that he assumes he can quote his past "works" and fool his audience. I wonder if he knows that members - and non-members - can and often do access information online and through local libraries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2013 11:53AM by jl.

He seems to hold the opinion that everything is possible and nothing can be pinned down to certitude. So, if you want to believe, he's the guy for you!

If you go, and if there is a period in which he takes questions, you might ask why "the one true church" would even have such "difficult questions." Neither should it have entrenched secrecy in any form, be it temple or financial or doctrinal.

I'm just sayin'. Mormons always speak of, and are even obsessed by, "difficult questions" and how to handle them. Now I always think, "Stop right there. The 'True Church' would have absolutely no 'difficult questions.'" That should have been my signal long ago.

"difficult questions"


A slick LDS euphemism for "stuff that doesn't make sense, cause there is no sense to be made of it" - the perennial mormon problem.

"difficult questions"

Actually, the questions are easy. It's that answers that are very, very difficult.

3X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "difficult questions"
>
>
> A slick LDS euphemism for "stuff that doesn't make
> sense, cause there is no sense to be made of it" -
> the perennial mormon problem.


Or from a Mormon persective, "Lies and stuff that Satan uses to cause doubt. Stuff that we know of course has to be lies, because the Church is true, no matter what."

One of the firesides is being held near me (southern Hampshire), and I'm tempted to go.

It will be interesting if his address is anything like 'Letter to a doubter' (see transcript at http://terrylgivens.com/addresses-and-essays/)

He won't answer any awkward questions (maybe a few responses to a few easy issues). He'll end up just recommending that we put everything back on the shelf.

Reading this talk, he actually sounds more like a NOM than a fully-fledged TBM. I wonder if this is why the brethren regard him as a secret weapon!

Having read 'Letter to a Doubter', you can see how TG sweeps away some broad issues in his mind, but the problem I have is that by excusing away prophets who teach 'false doctrine' (BY - Adam God) and TSCC exclusivity claims for truth, what are you actually really left with? Certainly very little that can compensate for 10% of one's lifetime income and many thousands of hours of time.

His adoption of the limited geography model also contradicts many prophetic utterances to the contrary (he admits that even JS got this wrong!) as well as the BoM itself, which I believe outlines how the land was specfically preserved. Did God really only conserve an area the size of Idaho, but was happy with countless other tribes and Indian races existing side by side and intermingling?

He sounds like another of those highly intelligent individuals that works hard to come up with ways to excuse and justify all the issues, without taking the brave step and admitting that all the problems associated with these defences completely disappear when you form a different conclusion.

It's hard to even follow his logic, it's so muddling. Dazzling with Bulls**t comes to mind.

But I think there's more than the falseness of the mormon church that he's in deep denial about.

anyone know the schedule of appearances?

i quite fancy going to this, curious to see what his act is...

...why not ask uncomfortable questions, e.g. about masturbation?

Interesting to see the reports back...

Givens has a humongous shelf.

Sounds dirty. And like a measure of comparison future "TBM's" will use to justify their belief despite increasing evidence against their position (of course, they'll call it "faith").

You know what they say about a guy with a big shelf?

I am going to guess that LDS INC bought his plane ticket, with a thumbs up from newly active Joh Dehlin.

Whatever any of us may think about Terryl Givens tour I respect that he is willing to stand up there and discuss these things. No general authority is willing. Apparently (I wasn't there so this is not first hand) he did say that he felt it was wrong that the church had covered up their history. I hope someone in attendance can give this forum a full update on the events which I believe have included the book of Abraham and Polyandry among saying that the 'one and only true church claim' was wrong. I have myself been deeply hurt by Mormonism, ended up in years of therapy due to the emotion abuse it has caused me, not to mention being £80,000 worse off because of it (being made to pay tithing on my birthday money so to not burn at the second coming). I have to say though, I can't judge Terryl's motives for doing this. Having read his books I think he is a real 'thinker' and much more liberal than the average Mormon. Perhaps his version of Mormonism would be something that would make our lives a better place with our families. Not that we'd ever go back but it could soften them towards us. Perhaps this is the church's back door method of coming clean. I simply think Terryl cannot say what he really thinks if he is to still be part of the LDS institutional church. He obviously feels it gives real value to his life (it does not mine) but I respect that it does for him. These type of liberal Mormon I hope will grow in number. Stamping out fundamentalism, black and white thinking. I think this is about coming clean in a measured way at the grass roots, taking the killing (those that leave, leave) and a new type of nuanced Mormon emerging who can live with all the 'unfaithpromoting' stuff because they 'know' the religion 'in their eyes' is a good way to live anyway. It sounds bonkers to many of us, but each to their own. As long as we get the respect for not believing it, then that's a huge start.

What exactly motivates Terryl Givens to take upon such a role? The guy is a well established academic and intellectual. So why is he prominently defending a bankrupt organization?

If a person openly defends an unpopular position, they earn the recognition, praise and support of the group under siege. This praise is often way out of proportion to the merits of the argument, especially if your supporters feel they are under attack.

If this praise is what is motivating Givens, then he is an emotionally flawed individual. The combination of intellectual gifts and emotional vulnerability is, well, unusual and fascinating.

I don't know Givens, or anyone connected with him, but I think you may be onto something here. The combination of intellectual gifts and emotional vulnerability is actually pretty common IMO--this describes many of my colleagues as well as most of my brothers--and defending the church may give someone a feeling of security, both from the praise and the feeling that they're a "savior on Mount Zion" who is doing God's work.

I think you're on to something.

I've noticed over the years that everybody who disagrees with me on any point does so because of some psychological defect or other.

Fortunately, such things don't apply in my case. Which is why my views are correct.

A well know academic decides to spend his time defending a convicted con man from the 19th century who claimed an angel appeared to him in the middle of the night. The angel told him where to find *golden* plates that contained the historical record of lost people who, unlike the Romans, left no artifacts, no roads, no aquaducts, no bridges and no third party accounts of their existence. There are many anachronisms and errors in the account, but no worries, his resulting book is the most perfect book on earth.

Such an academic encourages people to build their lives around such a outlandish story, including making significant donations of time and money.

Nope, nothing wrong here! Sounds perfectly sane to me.

I've read a lot of apologists in my half century of apostasy before formally resigning, beginning with Hugh Nibley at his prime, and I've read three of Given's books. He's far more sophisticated than Nibley, for he's an English professor apologist with all kinds of magic jujitsu from hermeneutics and stuff of his own alchemy. He can't kid this goldfish!

This is my first comment of my ninth decade. I try to make one a year. And in my opinion he's running for General Authority.

A Jehova complex if ever I saw one.

I'm reminded of a TBM friend who is well educated and successful in his job.

After attending a recent church meeting, he wrote that a number of successful members were in attendance -- many who were business executives and notable professionals, others were top-notch academics.

It's impossible to imagine, my friend wrote, that people with such impressive credentials could be hoodwinked into believing in a church that wasn't true.

Terry Givens offers exactly what my TBM friend needs: The support of a person with impeccable academic credentials and an unwavering belief in Mormonism.

http://graduatechristianunion.org/

After all, these are academics and students who support christianity. Maybe he could convince them of the truth of Joseph Smith's claims.

Were he to be aiming at such an audience I might be more convinced that he's fully comfortable with his own professed beliefs.

Perhaps he could request that local mormons and ex-mormons be included in the fireside/discussion/debate or whatever it turns out to be.

Maybe he won't then eh?

Edit: I see from his website that he's already held an event at the London School of Economics. Does anyone know how that went down?

Briggy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2013 06:03AM by brigantia.

Sherlock,

How do you know this is happening and have you a schedule?
Because he isn't publishing this on his website.

http://terrylgivens.com/events/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2013 05:21AM by Stumbling.

Stake pres has emailed stake leaders/bishoprics (I'm still on the mailing list) publicising this tour in May. I don't have a schedule for other areas of the UK yet but I'll post one if it becomes available.

I can't say which stake I'm part of and the scheduled date for obvious reasons. The email group list provides some fantastic nuggets of info, sometimes including the forwarding of many church HQ memos, as well as GA/area presidency notes.

Bro. Terryl's UK whistle-stop schedule is now up on his website...

http://terrylgivens.com/events/

Funny?

Why can't Apostles and Prophets answer these "difficult" questions.

Why send Terry?

They also travel to the UK at their convenience do they not?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2013 03:55PM by AmIDarkNow?.

Ask him if he truly believes that the Noachian flood was fictional, as his theory on Native American linguistics requires. Or if he believes that it actually happened, as modern LDS prophets, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the JST Bible all say it did.

There is nothing exceptional about Given's approach. His defenses simply come down to the idea that God allows contradictions (he call's them "nuances") so that faith is important. Like all cheerleaders of faith he never actually even starts to explain why God would be so invested in "faith". His ultimate point is that a "mature" faith is one that is impressed by all of the nuance, whereas a "naïve" faith is one that is troubled to the point of doubt from all of this contradictory nuance.

Nuances like "the earth was made from other planets" and other stupid stuff. I hope someone hits him with science problems and see how he nuances those. No death before the fall - God put fossils in the rocks to fool us? The sun gets light from Kolob - that is so stupid is needs no comments...

Why hasn't this UK tour been advertised to the members and who/what is the Temple and Observatory Group?