Me: That is one of my basic problems with Mormonism: it lacks any morality other than obedience. Abdicating moral authority to another human being is dangerous stuff.

Apologist: Arguably, another cheap shot. I disagree, but we have already discussed that. It teaches us to follow our own testimonies and consciences - since the very acceptance of that obedience is a covenant we freely accept. It's called "self-determination". I'm sorry if you did not understand that as an 8 year old. My son did before he was 9 and was not baptized until he was ready, and the same with my daughters, but they felt "ready" earlier. If they had not understood that, they would not have been baptized.

>>>

Once again, I'm told I was hopelessly (naïve, stupid, Pharisaical, take your pick) to have obeyed the counsel of my church leaders. Even a 9 year old kid, apparently, knows what I didn't: it's fine to say "no" to your church leaders.

Yes, I know we were taught that we should strive to gain a testimony of everything we were told to believe and do, but there was never a possibility that the answer would be that the leaders got it wrong. Seeking a testimony of a commandment, say, was not about determining whether the commandment was right, but rather it was about aligning our wills and desires with the commandments, which are right simply because they are right.

Growing up, I was taught that the leadership would never let us astray. President Benson taught me that I should obey my leaders and be blessed, even if I thought they were dead wrong (of course, he said, they wouldn't be). The story of the stripling warriors in the Book of Mormon was told to remind us that we were to "obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness."

On my mission, it was simply unthinkable to say no to your mission president. We were to memorize the rules in our "white bibles" and keep them scrupulously. Missionaries on occasion put themselves in danger because they obeyed with exactness, and of course, two missionaries were shot and killed because they followed the mission president's counsel to stay in their area and just be more faithful, and the Lord would protect them from the danger that was obvious to everyone.

As elders quorum president, I delivered a letter to two armed and dangerous nut jobs, even though I knew it was stupid to go over there. I did it because my bishop and stake president told me to. Until I moved out of that ward a month later, I endured threats of violence to myself and my family.

So, yes, I was taught to obey with exactness and not delay. I was told to ignore my own conscience and common sense because my leaders would not lead me astray. And I obeyed. I did what I was told, and I did it with trust and faith that I was doing what a good priesthood holder should do.

It is clear now that I was wrong. When asked to do something, I should have taken time to fast and pray and gain a testimony of that action. After all, "self-determination" is paramount.

I wish someone had made me aware of this 40 years ago or so.

How frustrating for you. It's natural to trust as a child. We trusted our parents and leaders and did what they said was right. And I never remember being taught at church that anything was above obedience.

There was never an exception.

And really, I'd love to know exactly how he made sure his kids "understood" before baptism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2011 04:15PM by Queen of Denial.

I've been a parent for 36 years and have had 8 of my 9 kids baptised.(I repent of that every day.) In all that time I have only seen one child whose mom put off his baptism. She didn't think he was ready at the time,but somehow he was ready the following month. NO kids decide on their own not to get baptised at 8. H

He's an idiot. I mean an apologist.

According to a TBM parent, it's our responsibility as a loving parent to make sure our 8 years old "choose" the right thing and get baptized.

"You can't leave a decision that important up to a child!"

shit.

He sounds like one of those guys who has absolutely no relationship with his kids.

If you fast and pray and don't get the "right" answer then you did it wrong, you didn't get your own "self determination". In those cases you have to fast and pray again and again until you get the "right" answer. Where's your self determination then?

Wow that was like, the definition of double-think. "We aren't mindlessly obedient because we *choose* to be obedient to the leader all the time". Uh, what? According to that definition- where choosing obedience means it isn't mindless- mindless obedience isn't possible. But we all know it is. History is full of examples of people doing horrendous things because of blindly obeying.

If they really were obeying their testimony instead of church leaders then why can't they distinguish between the two in terms of action? If the actions are essentially the same as obeying the leaders all the time why should anyone care if they want to claim its really about their own testimony? I think the person you are talking to is trying to convince themselves more than you, really.

I just love this line of apologetics, don't you? It's just another flavor of "It's all YOUR fault! The church is perfect!".

I've been reading that thread and came to the same conclusion you have: dude's a looney or a liar. We all know full well precisely which conclusion we are supposed to reach while pondering and praying for ourselves.

I also noticed, the poster in question doesn't seem to have any clue about Structuralism and semiotics which you keep trying to introduce to him and rigidly clings to Pragmatism.

Don't know how you manage to stay to civil and calm runtu. My hat's off to you.

Yes, I've tried to explain postmodernism, semiotics, and poststructuralism to him, but he's not really interested.

I've read enough of what Pragmatism is and why he clings to it, as you said, to make my conclusions about the lack of basic morality within Mormonism. To him, that's a cheap shot, but implying that his 9 year old knows more than I do isn't.

Sigh.

Exactly. I do believe you hit the nail on the head with WHY I finally found my way out.

I was trying to find words today to tell my boyfriend and post on here--what I felt the "invitation" back taht I got in the mail today reminded me of.

They have this idea they OWN me.

Their attitude is sanctimonious and emotionally manipulative.

I'm sure my boyfriend won't get it--he'll look at their invite and think "well, that was nice."

When I was deciding whether to get married or not (and all the other stuff I was going through), I'd tell the bishop, "That isn't the answer I'm getting" and he'd tell me, "We have to do it this way."

I kept suppressing my own intuition in favor of their's because of what I had been taught.

There is a problem with any dogma or religions when the first prinicple is "Obedience is the first law of heaven."

If you have doubts, you must consider your course of action; either follow out of simple obedience or you can follow with faith. Obviously, the latter will bring greater blessings.

It's the same with finding out for yourself whether the church is true- study it out in your own mind (which means to think about how great it is) until you accept it. Any other answer is to rebel against the light.

The answer is predetermined, and your responsibility is to confirm the answer.

If I were ever to imply that they were doing what the society told them to do, they would emphatically retort that it was their own conscience and the bible, and not the society that taught them how to act and think.

So... the society teaches them how to believe the bible. They believe the bible the way it is taught them. But no connection back to the source.

There's no transitive property connection going on in their heads.

Sheep are good! Goats are bad!

Good insights:

"Abdicating moral authority to another human being is dangerous stuff."

"The answer is predetermined, and your responsibility is to confirm the answer."

..."the very acceptance of that obedience is a covenant we freely accept. It's called 'self-determination.'"

Choosing to submit is SURRENDER of self-determination. It's like choosing to be a slave.

And the sick thing about Mormonism is they demand little kids make that big leap before they have the faintest idea what it really involves. Kids do it to make Mommy and Daddy happy, to be like the other kids. There's no "freely" about it. There's pressure from every direction. The choice would be free if they could say "No thank you" and parents and leaders would say, "Okay, whatever you want." But no, the pressure would continue until the kid "chose" to comply. The choice is to do what they want or bad things will happen. You won't get to be in Heaven with Mommy and Daddy. You won't be washed of your sins. The devil will get you. No party. No friends. Blah blah blah.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2011 07:49PM by Stray Mutt.

Considering that since 1830, tens of millions of people were duped by the chronically dishonest Mormon Church and manipulated by an entire, very dysfunctional, cultic religious system to believe that nonsense was 'true' while 'faith-disrupting' demonstrable facts were 'anti-Mormon' and 'of the Devil' (a mind-f*ck if there ever was one!), you are one of the relatively fortunate 'souls' who, at the relatively young age of just 40, has liberated himself from cultic Mormonism.

We're EXTREMELY fortunate to live in industrialized countries and at a time when the Internet is so widespread and easily accessible. I started posting here about 14 years ago. Since then, 100's of 1,000's of people have gone online and learned about the fraud of Mo-ism. In online communities like this one, so many people have helped psychologically imprisoned Latter-day Saints realize that they can leave the manipulative LDS Church and create a much better and happier life for themselves.

The past is like a rearview mirror in a car - look at it too often and/or for too long and one is bound to crash. Driving requires looking forward, mostly. So too is living post-Mormonism.

Best wishes!

I find it interesting that cultists and religionistas often say they are sorry that I don't understand or believe. They are neither sorry or sincere in their caring for me or for others.

They shut down when presented with differing views and beliefs. I am truly sorry that children are raised in such a soul stifling environment...and that is a sincere sentiment.