I finally got my Dad to talk about my situation and he made it very clear that he does not hate me. He is simply very hurt, angry, and extremely sad that I have decided to damage the reputation of his family by leaving the church and opening up about my sexuality. So, I finally understand that this is all about his reputation and my wants and desires do not matter. Here is a conversation that we had the other day:

Me: So Dad, you are more worried about your reputation than you are about my well-being?

Dad: No, it's just that I wish you could see how much you have hurt this entire family with your decisions.

Me: So, my feelings are not as important as the feelings of the rest of you?

Dad: It's not about that son. It's about the fact that you are choosing pain and sorrow over peace and joy.

Me: Peace and joy Dad? For who? Certainly not me. Do you think it was easy for me to live a lie for more than 35 years? Do you think it was easy for me to pretend to be something I'm not for so long? I don't think my life had much peace and joy before I decided to take care of myself and my needs.

Dad: It's just that we love you so much and want you to have eternal happiness. Your Mother and I want our entire family together in the next life.

Me: Dad, I'm sorry, but how can you expect me to spend my entire life being miserable just so you don't have to be embarrassed by me? It's too much to ask of anyone.

Dad: Well, I hope you will one day change your mind.

Me: And if I don't change my mind. Will you continue to be embarrassed and hurt about me and my choices?

Dad: Yes, I will always be hurt by it,but that doesn't mean I don't love you.

Me: Dad, I hope you do love me, but I often think you are more worried about the reputation of this family than you are about me, and I think it's pretty sad. This family has always been about getting all the glory and honor we can, and I am tired of it. The people in this family have only talked about 2 things over the past month - 1) the glory our cousin is getting from being on that stupid reality show, and 2) the fact that I have destroyed the reputation of the family. The P family is simply looking for glory and attention. Dad, I need to be able to be happy in this life, and I really wish you could see that I am not doing this to hurt anyone. I just want to be loved for who I am.

Dad: That's really not fair for you to say that Son. I have always wanted my kids to be happy...

Me: Maybe that's true, but you don't have the right to decide what makes us happy. We have to make those choices on our own. I'm sorry, but I cannot live my life for you or for anyone else. I hope that one day you can begin to understand that.

Dad: I think I understand a lot more than you think I do.

Me: Perhaps, but I wish you could understand that I only want to be happy, and I am making the choices that I believe will help me to do so.

Dad: I guess we have nothing more to say about this?

Me: No, I guess we don't. I'm sorry that we cannot be closer Dad...I really truly would like to have a better relationship with you.

Dad: Me too.

Anyway, I'm sorry this is so long, but I did want to share with you. I actually felt a little better about this conversation than most of the other recent conversations I have had with him. I'm glad we remained civil and I am truly hoping that one day we can be close again.

Made up my mind many moons ago that it is, in fact, all about me.

No one is worth the price of you having to sacrifice your personal happiness.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2011 01:11PM by Timothy.

He's more concerned with himself than he is with you.

Wendell, you tried. You did what you could. Be proud of yourself for that.

*HUGS*

"Dad: I think I understand a lot more than you think I do."

When pressed by myself to elaborate on a similar claim, my mother launched into a temple-this doctrine-that diatribe that was all about the cult giving orders and the sheeple (specifically me) following them.

Wendell, your father doesn't understand shit more than you know he does (meaning he understands ZERO). He doesn't know anything about you and your needs and desires and he doesn't care. He thinks he can bully and bullshit you back into submission and control. You know better, and you gave him an argument he already knows he can't win. Good for you! I'm proud of you that you stood up to him, laid your personal integrity on the line, and dared him to match it. You see that he can't: he hasn't the balls. And you have nothing—NOTHING—to apologize for.

Best wishes. I hope you and loved ones are continuing to recover well from your accident.

It isn't YOUR fault that the church is a hoax. You are the little kid that will admit that the Emperor has no clothes.

I know there wasn't much hope but your point was quite valid. This is all about your family's glory and you embarassing your father by not growing up to be a good little morgbot. (I was going to say penishoodholder but I get the impression you're good at that. *smirk*)

Anyway, I'd be proud to have you as a brother. My family is similar and can't handle the fact that I'm not much like them. My father is trying to mend fences now but I built them in the first place so I wouldn't be hurt so much and I don't see them coming down anytime soon.

The penishood holder thing anyway.

It was not easy for me to show restraint, but I am a much more patient person than I was just a few months ago. Like I said, I really do believe I am starting to get it. Perhaps we can have some more decent conversations in the future. I know I would like it. Thanks to all of you for your support.

how certain children in a family can be sacrificed to keep the family image up. They were specifically children who had been sexually abused by family members and were expected to keep quiet about it so everyone else in the family wouldn't be made to be uncomfortable, much less accountable.

I don't see any difference between that and what you were asked to give up for the image. You are expected to be just like your father because that is what he wants the family to be, regardless of how wrong that is for you.

Many of us here grew up like that, but few were asked to give as much as you already have. Yet he thinks he understands. I don't believe he is capable of it.

is to raise their children to leave the nest and follow their own individual lives as they see fit. My children did that and I am so grateful that I was not able to make them do what I thought they should do. They have made much better decisions for their lives than I ever could have, and much more imaginative ones!

Families in the morg, however, seek to imprison their children in the ways of the parents and grandparents. When I see mormon family group photos all dressed alike, all lined up, presumably following the family line, I just know there are some really stunted, frustrated people in that picture.

Good for you, Wendell. I happen to think that your father may come around more than you expect. Parents really do want to love and accept their children, but sometimes our own mistaken views get in the way. The things you said to him really do have the power to make him think.

Adult of god Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> is to raise their children to leave the nest and
> follow their own individual lives as they see fit.
> My children did that and I am so grateful that I
> was not able to make them do what I thought they
> should do. They have made much better decisions
> for their lives than I ever could have, and much
> more imaginative ones!
>
> Families in the morg, however, seek to imprison
> their children in the ways of the parents and
> grandparents. When I see mormon family group
> photos all dressed alike, all lined up, presumably
> following the family line, I just know there are
> some really stunted, frustrated people in that
> picture.
>
> Good for you, Wendell. I happen to think that
> your father may come around more than you expect.
> Parents really do want to love and accept their
> children, but sometimes our own mistaken views get
> in the way. The things you said to him really do
> have the power to make him think.


It was so assuring to read your saying that. It is so so true. Thanks.

Very well said Wendell! While I am disgusted at your father's controlling responses, I am very impressed by the way that you handled this.

More power to you.

I think I remember just starting to get on this board and seeing your moniker, and then you were gone for awhile, so I don't really know much about you or your situation. So make fun of me if you want, but I started to tear up reading this post.

I am so impressed by how you handled it. I read it again from your dad's TBM perspective, and I feel like he could have easily gotten off the phone thinking,"When did Wendell become so selfish? All he cares about are his feelings and his life." It's just so sad to me that he won't see what he's doing to you, and to himself, really.

Of course, I have no idea what you or your dad is thinking or feeling. So I'll end this conjecture.

I'm sending a big, warm cyber-hug your way. I think you are very brave.

Too right.

It's not as if the convert or the BIC doesn't wish his/her lifestyle and belief choices to influence the entire life course of all their descendants - extending even to who their descendants choose to marry or not! In addition, they always use the guilt of the afterlife to try and force compliance. That is extremely selfish by any stretch.

So many of our problems with parents are rooted in their self-image and imagined reputation.

When I was a young teenager, I mortified my mother by wearing ratty jeans. "What kind of parents will people think you have when they see you dressed like that?"

"Well, if they know you, they'll know you're good people. If they don't know you, then what does it matter?"

the old boy sounds like he is at least willing to have a conversation with you. While I sensed disappointment in him I did not sense hatred. There is that. And you're right about one thing. You are not responsible for how they react to what you're doing. They are.

Hugs to you!

good to detach yourself from his reality.

When I divorced my BIC husband my FIL was embarrassed because it was the 2nd divorce among his sons!
He could put under the carpet his other son's divorce because the cheating wife dumped my FIL son... and had never married him in the temple.

but I broke the mold!! I had married the BIC in the temple and divorced and took full custody of the five kids!!

It is hard when our parents are not on the same page.

You are the outcast because you don't buckle under and follow all the approved steps to the CK.

Your father, from what I read, is set in his Mormon World View and probably has no other approved way of looking at the world.
He most likely can't figure out what he did wrong and why he is being punished.

You have one positive thing working for you --- a willingness to communicate and express himself. That is a huge step forward.
Maybe there will be more of them, but I suspect this is still raw and confusing right now. Give it another three or four years, maybe he's soften up a bit.

Hang in there. You are on a difficult road right now! I think you are doing a very good job of making every attempt to be heard and understood. Hopefully, it works better for you in the future.

This really reminds me of my own family too. My dad and mom are still very "sad" about my brother (and my cousin's) "choice" of homosexuality.

Yes, they say that they love them, and they've been very good lately. The relationships are almost there. But it's still that "almost." They can't just give up and let go of the "sad" and the "choice" issue that would really free them of everything.

But, to be honest, I think that deep down my parents fear that if they fully accept my brother, then they acknowledge that the church is completely wrong about this issue.

My parents lived through the priesthood thing and the ERA thing. And if the church was wrong about those and is wrong about these. Well...........

Sorry about your situation. Maybe someday your father will realize he's wrong about this issue. Maybe.

Whether he does or not, though-- that doesn't stop you from being a good person, or a good parent.

I'm going to be honest and I really hope I'm not in trouble for my honesty here, but I used to think that gay people were that way because of choice. It wasn't until I got to know a gay couple very well (in fact I am going to dinner with them tonight) and heard personally from their mouths that they didn't choose it. I scanned the internet and realized evidence supported it is not a choice. Then I just felt bad for feeling the way I did. I tried for it to make sense that it was by choice, and then finally realized it wasn't a choice. It was actually a relief to change my mind. From there I followed it further. If it isn't a choice, then God must have designed them that way. And if God designed them that way, He did it on purpose. I know this is not a popular view to believe in God and also believe he designed people to be gay, but that is my opinion. And I'm sorry I ever felt it was a choice. I didn't know better. When I knew better, I did better. Just stand, and be their wonderful son. Be your authentic self, of course, you already know that. It speaks volumes.

You are absolutely right.

My BIL grew up in rural Russia and where being gay was and is, to say the least, difficult with rampant homophobia and violence against gays being daily realities. He said he knew the first time he thought about it (at age 11-12) that he was gay. He's had a tough time of it and he always says that it would be a curious "choice" indeed to make given how tough it was.

But after my brother came out, I still hung out with him and then met some of his gay friends. We talked very honestly, and after time I realized that I was wrong.

And I had been taught wrong.

I was taught to believe that from a very young age, so I never judge anyone for having those beliefs. I am so glad there are people like you that have learned it's not so black and white as many people believe. I just know for sure that although I love being gay, it is DEFINITELY not something I would consciously choose. Thanks for your post...and for your honesty.

My dad was always trying to control my brother and make him be what he wanted him to be. He would sit and cry about it, and there's nothing worse than watching an old guy cry. His tears were genuine, he truly felt bad. He and my brother would try to work things out, and my brother always felt very guilty.

But did my dad ever change? Nope. Crocodile tears.

Love is as love does.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2011 03:52PM by lostinutah.

what a shit head fool your dad is BEING. Not is, but "BEING". He just doesn't get it! It's not about changing someones mind about their conditions and situations, it's about one changing their heart so they can see things more clearly and stop being so damn controlling and naive and bigoted. I hope one day your dad will get that his own pride is hurting more people in the family than your own personal choice ever will. Sorry, but the mormon church has turned your father's thoughts over to the dark side a long time ago. You should be proud of yourself for being true to yourself even if it was a painful process.

What EH said.

(I just now found this thread.)

This time you were able to stay balanced in a new way, in the conversation. Furthermore, you had some great questions for your dad! including "Do you think it was easy for me to live a lie for more than 35 years?" and "How can you expect me to spend my entire life being miserable just so you don't have to be embarrassed by me?"

Your father is beginning to realize that you are standing firm in who you are and in your choice to leave the church. He sees that he no longer has the power over you that he once had.

You have grown so much in the last few months, Wendell! You have weathered all the hardest things. This conversation was a milestone. Congratulations!

You did well in that conversation. Your dad is just worried about HIMSELF and his reputation. He can't fathom what unhappiness is since he feels he has done only things to make his family happy. He doesn't get the concept of the whole person and their growth over time. He is still thinking he is in charge. Nope, sorry dad. Anyhow, he may never get it but you have done well to try to make him understand.

Well, EH, RJ, Queenie, everyone, you stole what I was gonna say. You bastards!

My own father and I cannot speak at all. It's been so long that I don't even miss him any more. Same for mom.

I am hetero, married a while (over 20) and they still can't find anything redeeming about me.

We run to our families for support. Google "sanctuary trauma", the human tendancy to go to those who hurt us for respite from the pain.

Your father may have sired you, but please forgive any offense, his approval is worthless, and may well be un attainable, just my opinion.

My father cannot change me, no freakin way, and I hope you stay true to you because I really am moved by what you said to your father.

If I could speak to mine the way you did to yours I might even try it!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2011 03:04AM by roflmao.