Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
I applaud anyone who leaves for whatever reasons speak to them.
I can certainly understand why gays don't stay. I wish they'd leave much much sooner before so much suffering.
What I have trouble with is this. Mromons mistreat many others besides gays, namely females. Yet, I often read about women staying and putting up with the sexist policies and abuse and only leaving after a gay loved one is harmed.
Why is that? As much as I care about how others are treated, what tends to bother me first and above all is how *I* am treated, and I don't like being treated like a second class citizen or a chump.
I can certainly understand why gays don't stay. I wish they'd leave much much sooner before so much suffering.
What I have trouble with is this. Mromons mistreat many others besides gays, namely females. Yet, I often read about women staying and putting up with the sexist policies and abuse and only leaving after a gay loved one is harmed.
Why is that? As much as I care about how others are treated, what tends to bother me first and above all is how *I* am treated, and I don't like being treated like a second class citizen or a chump.
Without a righteous Priesthood holder to call her name at the time of the Resurrection, she can not enter the Celestial Kingdom.
Most women know or have heard at some point in their lives that they must be sealed to a man in order to get in. They know from the temple that their husband knows their new name but they do not know his, and because of this, she must be everything that he wants, or he might decide against calling her name.
Should they leave the church, their only hope is that someone will seal them after death, and that the one they are sealed to will want them and raise them up.
Most women know or have heard at some point in their lives that they must be sealed to a man in order to get in. They know from the temple that their husband knows their new name but they do not know his, and because of this, she must be everything that he wants, or he might decide against calling her name.
Should they leave the church, their only hope is that someone will seal them after death, and that the one they are sealed to will want them and raise them up.
But this is what they consider their fate if they leave because of being marginalized as a woman or if they leave because of concern for gays. so I wonder why they'd risk such a thing for someone else and not for their own lifetime happiness.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 03:56PM by Cheryl.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 03:56PM by Cheryl.
And if they believe in the Bible, just where in it does it say a woman must be called by her husband to get into heaven. That has always been such a ridiculous belief!!! Again, a reason the Mormons will never be mainstream. Never.
The Church is institutionalized abuse. Add to that, it's a fantasy and, well, that'll get ya to run fast and far.
It's a fairy tale. It has a dark side that hates gays and lesbians. The elderly leaders are given large salaries, but the world is not supposed to know that.
The church is constantly telling women they are respected and honored by the church, so they start to believe it. They only realize that the church is abusive when they see it being done to other people.
In much the same way abused children and wives view it. That's pathetic.
They bought into the stay at home mom thing and have no work sills that they can use to support them selves if they leave the male bread winner of the family.
In my situation,my exbishop is what drove me out of the church. Oh,and the relief society prez. I went to the bishop with SERIOUS marriage issues. My dh was very mentally and emotionally abusive to me. And it was getting worse. I went to the bishop thinking he would listen to my stories and call dh on the carpet-or worse. I went to see bishop twice. What a jerk he was-didn't believe or didn't care one bit. I was so angry and offended I wanted to prove the church wasn't true. The R.S. prez didn't give me the time of day either. I knew I didn't want to belong to a church that treated women this way,and finding out the lds church was a crock of bull was very emotionally healing to me. But I am in a dead end,awful marriage,but can't do anything about it because of finances.
Oh, please do find a way to do something about it. Maybe the Bishop wouldn't help you- he has no skills in this area- but you can make a plan. What would life be like on our own? How would you survive financially. If hubby is abusive you need to get away.
I think it was J egar Hover who made the quote that describes the tscc perfectly " Master's of Deceit" ....
I would be one of those women. I was the most active of my parents' children and them, though my mother was quite active, but I wanted a guarantee. Like someone else said--it is a fairy tale. I've always felt safety and security were more important to me than love. I thought if I did everything right that nothing bad would happen to me. I never wanted to lose my husband or my children. They taught me they had all the answers--all I had to do was listen and follow them and my life would be "perfect."
I didn't know I was being abused. You figured it out. I've actually always been a free thinker--believe it or not--my dad raised us that way (much to his dismay at times!!!). All of us have a little bit of him in us--ONERY and OPINIONATED.
Anyway--when I went to them with the most important question of my life--about gays--they had no answers or they had the wrong ones.
I can't even tell you how I came to be where I am--how I processed it and walked away. Although I stayed active mormon for a long, long time, I always had my way of rebelling. I never wanted to be like other mormon women--which I think is part of the reason I married who I did. I love the life I lead now--it is the life I was always meant to lead.
I didn't know I was being abused. You figured it out. I've actually always been a free thinker--believe it or not--my dad raised us that way (much to his dismay at times!!!). All of us have a little bit of him in us--ONERY and OPINIONATED.
Anyway--when I went to them with the most important question of my life--about gays--they had no answers or they had the wrong ones.
I can't even tell you how I came to be where I am--how I processed it and walked away. Although I stayed active mormon for a long, long time, I always had my way of rebelling. I never wanted to be like other mormon women--which I think is part of the reason I married who I did. I love the life I lead now--it is the life I was always meant to lead.
Tell a woman she will never see her children again in all eternity if she doesn't do ________________ and if you can get her to believe you, she will do whatever she has to in order to protect those children. And grandchildren. And to see her parents and grandparents who have died again some day. Even if you just convince her that in order to keep her kids safe from drugs, alcohol, gangs and coffee they need to be in a perfect Mormon family, you'll get a woman who will work to create that zone of protection for her kids. She'll put up with any treatment you dish out too. Until....
she realizes what is really going on. Then she can see the abuse, the mind-control of the children, the incessant demands on the family destroying her family. Once she realizes the real threat is coming from those who she thought were her protectors, you have a whole different scenario on your hands. That's why the church pays lip service to motherhood and feelings and such. Keep those women enslaved and blinded and you'll probably get everyone around them as well.
she realizes what is really going on. Then she can see the abuse, the mind-control of the children, the incessant demands on the family destroying her family. Once she realizes the real threat is coming from those who she thought were her protectors, you have a whole different scenario on your hands. That's why the church pays lip service to motherhood and feelings and such. Keep those women enslaved and blinded and you'll probably get everyone around them as well.
I think your reaction of "how you are treated" makes sense. I worry a lot about how others treat me too, but what really gets under my skin is when someone I love is hurt. You can step on me all you want - you mess with my wife and we have issues.
My wife recently went through some crap at work. Personally and professionally offensive, shouldn't ever have happened, someone should be going to jail kind of crap. And my wife wasn't all that upset about it. She could deal with it and she did.
I - on the other hand - was raging mad and was about two seconds away from getting on a plane and rearranging some faces. It took me weeks to calm down. And I' still pissed about the whole thing. My wife acknowledged that were the situations reversed and it was a situation I encountered and not her that she would have been as mad on my behalf as I was on hers.
I think that's the reaction you're seeing from women in the church. I think some of us are hardwired to be able to take abuse, but not able to watch those we love take abuse. I don't necessarily see it as a women thing, but as a human nature thing.
My wife recently went through some crap at work. Personally and professionally offensive, shouldn't ever have happened, someone should be going to jail kind of crap. And my wife wasn't all that upset about it. She could deal with it and she did.
I - on the other hand - was raging mad and was about two seconds away from getting on a plane and rearranging some faces. It took me weeks to calm down. And I' still pissed about the whole thing. My wife acknowledged that were the situations reversed and it was a situation I encountered and not her that she would have been as mad on my behalf as I was on hers.
I think that's the reaction you're seeing from women in the church. I think some of us are hardwired to be able to take abuse, but not able to watch those we love take abuse. I don't necessarily see it as a women thing, but as a human nature thing.
He, the nevermo, was always more angered than I was at mormons who harassed me after I left their church.
I think that's how "men of action" react. They feel it's their job to protect their families and it's harder for them to do nothing than it is to step in and take charge.
I think that's how "men of action" react. They feel it's their job to protect their families and it's harder for them to do nothing than it is to step in and take charge.
I've said this many times- The way to control the women in religion is through their children. If all women stopped buying into these misogynistic religions, the religions would crumble.
Unfortunately, they're too intimidated to know it.
LDS Inc gets away with it because the Catholic Church provides cover for them. When Papacy Inc allows women in as equal citizens, LDS Inc will stick out like a sore thumb. I'm not, however, holding my breath on the Catholics getting a clue anytime soon.
Mormon women will never be in a position of "presiding" over any group that contains any males over the age of 11. They will routinely see women in positions of authority everywhere from banks and corporations to shift managers at McDonalds. Eventually, they are going to start asking themselves how come no woman, ever, has been in a position of authority in LDS Inc? And they will leave.
For a look at what activist women are doing in Catholicism (and it is impressive, but they are dealing with a much larger mountain than Mormonism), see:
http://www.goodcatholicgirls.com/
Mormon women will never be in a position of "presiding" over any group that contains any males over the age of 11. They will routinely see women in positions of authority everywhere from banks and corporations to shift managers at McDonalds. Eventually, they are going to start asking themselves how come no woman, ever, has been in a position of authority in LDS Inc? And they will leave.
For a look at what activist women are doing in Catholicism (and it is impressive, but they are dealing with a much larger mountain than Mormonism), see:
http://www.goodcatholicgirls.com/
From the website about how cultic Mo-ism affects people psychologically:
"Self-esteem and personal power: LDS females
It is no secret that many Mormon women are depressed. One of the main reasons why is because they have been disempowered by Mormon patriarchy for generations. Mormon patriarchy is rooted in early 19th-century American patriarchy, which evolved from transplanted British and European patriarchy. For centuries, men controlled the main institutions in society (e.g., government, the military, churches, businesses) and allowed women only certain privileges. During the past century, things have changed significantly for females, particularly in Western countries. In the past 100 years, women have empowered themselves as never before in history. They have become political leaders, military commanders, professors, senior managers, surgeons, astronauts, professional athletes, etc. Females have proven themselves to be just as capable as men at effectively using power and authority, and in some cases, better. The Mormon patriarchal order is rooted in an archaic belief system and needs to radically change; LDS females do not have to support the patriarchal status quo in the Mormon Church if they don't want to.
Another major reason why many LDS women are depressed is that they have been psychologically conditioned by Mormonism to base much of their self-esteem and identity on being a daughter of a male deity ('Heavenly Father') and a 'wife and mother in Zion'. As mentioned, Heavenly Father is a psychological construct, the product of human thought. To base part (or all) of one's self-esteem on something that is only a belief is not wise. It is also not prudent to base one's self-esteem on one's marital status, which many women, in and outside of the LDS Church, do. Why? Well, what happens if your spouse is killed? With your husband gone, is your self-esteem going to collapse? What would happen to your self-esteem if you discover that your spouse has been having an affair? Will it crumble? Furthermore, if you base your self-esteem on being a mother, what happens to it if you're no longer a mother because your child is hit by a car and killed? These aren't pleasant things to think about, but the truth is that they are realities for some women, including some LDS women, and heart-breaking situations happen to people. Life is full of risk.
Many women in the Mormon Church link their self-esteem to aspects of the lives of their priesthood-holder husband and their children: the prominence of their husband's calling (e.g., bishop, stake president), his academic and professional successes and how much money he makes, the fact that their sons served missions and their children are married in the temple, etc. Why do so many LDS women do this? Because it brings them approval from Mormon authority figures (the most prominent one being God, as Mormons conceive 'Him' to be in their minds) and the LDS community. It reinforces their status in the Mormon 'tribe' as a faithful 'wife and mother in Zion'. But what happens to the self-esteem of LDS women when their priesthood-holder husband becomes 'inactive', their sons don't go on missions and their daughters won't marry in the temple? It decreases/suffers.
The deepest and strongest foundation of self-esteem is ourselves. It is the only foundation that will withstand the losses, vicissitudes, and storms of life. Most people, including Mormons, do not understand this profound psychological truth because they do not understand how they have been psychologically conditioned or what healthy self-esteem is based upon (the six practices mentioned above)."
(ref. http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/)
The Morg's 'programming' includes the nonsensical idea that 'trials and tribulations', particularly in the context of family and other relationships, are 'God-given', or the result of 'disobedience' (so 'Satan' is granted power by 'God' to undermine a person's quality of life). That 'programming' creates a dysfunctional psychological 'lens' through which all challenges, traumas, difficulties, heartbreaks, upsets, etc. are regarded.
A psychological truth related to self-esteem is that we teach people how to treat us, i.e., if we tolerate sh*t, sooner or later, people, organizations, etc. will treat us in sh*tty ways. The way to keep their crappy behaviour away from our lives is to establish boundaries, or withdraw ourselves from the relationship because it's unhealthy, causing us financial difficulty, etc. A straight-forward, rational concept, right? When has a Mormon 'prophet' said to Latter-day Saints: "Bear in mind: We teach people how to treat us", or something to that effect? Never!
Because TSCC is patriarchal, dishonest, manipulative, and disempowering, people have to escape cultic Mo-ism to heal their wounded psyche and experience the joys of an empowered life.
"Self-esteem and personal power: LDS females
It is no secret that many Mormon women are depressed. One of the main reasons why is because they have been disempowered by Mormon patriarchy for generations. Mormon patriarchy is rooted in early 19th-century American patriarchy, which evolved from transplanted British and European patriarchy. For centuries, men controlled the main institutions in society (e.g., government, the military, churches, businesses) and allowed women only certain privileges. During the past century, things have changed significantly for females, particularly in Western countries. In the past 100 years, women have empowered themselves as never before in history. They have become political leaders, military commanders, professors, senior managers, surgeons, astronauts, professional athletes, etc. Females have proven themselves to be just as capable as men at effectively using power and authority, and in some cases, better. The Mormon patriarchal order is rooted in an archaic belief system and needs to radically change; LDS females do not have to support the patriarchal status quo in the Mormon Church if they don't want to.
Another major reason why many LDS women are depressed is that they have been psychologically conditioned by Mormonism to base much of their self-esteem and identity on being a daughter of a male deity ('Heavenly Father') and a 'wife and mother in Zion'. As mentioned, Heavenly Father is a psychological construct, the product of human thought. To base part (or all) of one's self-esteem on something that is only a belief is not wise. It is also not prudent to base one's self-esteem on one's marital status, which many women, in and outside of the LDS Church, do. Why? Well, what happens if your spouse is killed? With your husband gone, is your self-esteem going to collapse? What would happen to your self-esteem if you discover that your spouse has been having an affair? Will it crumble? Furthermore, if you base your self-esteem on being a mother, what happens to it if you're no longer a mother because your child is hit by a car and killed? These aren't pleasant things to think about, but the truth is that they are realities for some women, including some LDS women, and heart-breaking situations happen to people. Life is full of risk.
Many women in the Mormon Church link their self-esteem to aspects of the lives of their priesthood-holder husband and their children: the prominence of their husband's calling (e.g., bishop, stake president), his academic and professional successes and how much money he makes, the fact that their sons served missions and their children are married in the temple, etc. Why do so many LDS women do this? Because it brings them approval from Mormon authority figures (the most prominent one being God, as Mormons conceive 'Him' to be in their minds) and the LDS community. It reinforces their status in the Mormon 'tribe' as a faithful 'wife and mother in Zion'. But what happens to the self-esteem of LDS women when their priesthood-holder husband becomes 'inactive', their sons don't go on missions and their daughters won't marry in the temple? It decreases/suffers.
The deepest and strongest foundation of self-esteem is ourselves. It is the only foundation that will withstand the losses, vicissitudes, and storms of life. Most people, including Mormons, do not understand this profound psychological truth because they do not understand how they have been psychologically conditioned or what healthy self-esteem is based upon (the six practices mentioned above)."
(ref. http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/)
The Morg's 'programming' includes the nonsensical idea that 'trials and tribulations', particularly in the context of family and other relationships, are 'God-given', or the result of 'disobedience' (so 'Satan' is granted power by 'God' to undermine a person's quality of life). That 'programming' creates a dysfunctional psychological 'lens' through which all challenges, traumas, difficulties, heartbreaks, upsets, etc. are regarded.
A psychological truth related to self-esteem is that we teach people how to treat us, i.e., if we tolerate sh*t, sooner or later, people, organizations, etc. will treat us in sh*tty ways. The way to keep their crappy behaviour away from our lives is to establish boundaries, or withdraw ourselves from the relationship because it's unhealthy, causing us financial difficulty, etc. A straight-forward, rational concept, right? When has a Mormon 'prophet' said to Latter-day Saints: "Bear in mind: We teach people how to treat us", or something to that effect? Never!
Because TSCC is patriarchal, dishonest, manipulative, and disempowering, people have to escape cultic Mo-ism to heal their wounded psyche and experience the joys of an empowered life.
She grew up to marry a horribly abusive man.
He just left her and she filed the paperwork to end their 25 year old marriage yesterday.
She is still desperately grieving.
Why? Because abuse is all she knows and it is what she was conditioned and trained to accept for herself. This is often the case with abuse.
He just left her and she filed the paperwork to end their 25 year old marriage yesterday.
She is still desperately grieving.
Why? Because abuse is all she knows and it is what she was conditioned and trained to accept for herself. This is often the case with abuse.
This is a sad topic. Sad, but true. Imagine the lack of status/self-esteem of an older, never married TBB woman.
The best advice to all women, LDS or not, is trust YOURSELF. Learn to rely on YOURSELF. See yourself for who you really are and not as reflected through the eyes of a man.
The best advice to all women, LDS or not, is trust YOURSELF. Learn to rely on YOURSELF. See yourself for who you really are and not as reflected through the eyes of a man.
1. Too many stupid rules that have absolutley nothing to do with Jesus.
2. Too much JS, follow the prophet, pay tithes, go to the temple, cut your hair etc.
3.Boring, business-like meetings instead of worship services complete with screaming kids.
4.Politics. I never agreed with them on anything.
5.Gays, blacks and the priesthood, the ERA, womens' rights issues, polygamy and so on.
6. I didn't believe it, didn't like it, was getting nothing out of it and it didn't work for me.
Personally, I never felt abused, but I didn't like the idea that men ruled women
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 08:31PM by bona dea.
2. Too much JS, follow the prophet, pay tithes, go to the temple, cut your hair etc.
3.Boring, business-like meetings instead of worship services complete with screaming kids.
4.Politics. I never agreed with them on anything.
5.Gays, blacks and the priesthood, the ERA, womens' rights issues, polygamy and so on.
6. I didn't believe it, didn't like it, was getting nothing out of it and it didn't work for me.
Personally, I never felt abused, but I didn't like the idea that men ruled women
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 08:31PM by bona dea.
They're a false church who's teachings are supported by the childish scribblings of a 8 year old Victorian era Flim Flammer.
I was a young convert and when I met the missionaries I was vulnerable and in a lot of emotional pain and I drank the "milk". Then I ate the poisoned meat but the poisoning was a slow process. I wanted to believe the Church. I wanted to feel special. I came from an abusive foster home where love was scarce and I experienced ridicule and hate for being an orphan.
After baptism I continued to ask questions and of course continued to study the Mormon religion. I was curious about the teaching that said some people were more valiant than others in the pre-existence and therefore were born into better life experiences. They used underdeveloped countries as their example of the less valiant. Without telling the missionaries the circumstances of my birth I asked them about illegitimate orphans. They said that orphans were less valiant in the pre-existence. They were not born into homes where they would have parents and it was because of how they lived in the pre-existence. And then they said those not born in America were also less valiant. They are teaching this to me in Canada. So I joined the church not knowing I already had two strikes against me, I was a Canadian orphan.
I felt sick to my stomach. I knew that if I had been taught that belief before baptism I would probably never have joined the church. Now that I was a member I figured that if I became the very best Mormon I could be I would win God's favour and He would forgive me for being less valiant in the pre-existence. I hoped I could clean the slate for I never wanted to come face to face with God and feel His disappointment because I had been less valiant in the pre-existence. I was always afraid to ask if God had forgiven me for what I had done in the pre-existence and how I could ask for forgiveness when I didn't know what it was I did. Or was I suppose to be asking for forgiveness for not being valiant but valiant in what? How could I know? So I just kept trying to be a good Mormon.
It was the birth of our daughter that opened pandora's box. I allowed myself to see the spiritual abuse of the church, the brainwashing, the fake love bombing and no way, no how were we going to subject our daughter to that. I had made a commitment to myself that if I ever had children the cycle of abuse would stop with me. When I made that commitment it was because of the abuse I experienced before I joined the church. It was devastating to me when I opened my eyes and realized if we stayed in the church our daughter who wouldn't know the abuse I knew as an orphan would however experience the abuse of mormonism for I really believe that church's doctrine is abusive. It was time to leave the church and we did.
So abuse drove me to the church and abuse drove me away from the church.
I have told this story before and have taken some heat for it saying the church never taught that about being valiant but it is my story, it is what I was taught in that church and I'm stickin' to it, Mormon Doctrine is abusive to men women and children.
After baptism I continued to ask questions and of course continued to study the Mormon religion. I was curious about the teaching that said some people were more valiant than others in the pre-existence and therefore were born into better life experiences. They used underdeveloped countries as their example of the less valiant. Without telling the missionaries the circumstances of my birth I asked them about illegitimate orphans. They said that orphans were less valiant in the pre-existence. They were not born into homes where they would have parents and it was because of how they lived in the pre-existence. And then they said those not born in America were also less valiant. They are teaching this to me in Canada. So I joined the church not knowing I already had two strikes against me, I was a Canadian orphan.
I felt sick to my stomach. I knew that if I had been taught that belief before baptism I would probably never have joined the church. Now that I was a member I figured that if I became the very best Mormon I could be I would win God's favour and He would forgive me for being less valiant in the pre-existence. I hoped I could clean the slate for I never wanted to come face to face with God and feel His disappointment because I had been less valiant in the pre-existence. I was always afraid to ask if God had forgiven me for what I had done in the pre-existence and how I could ask for forgiveness when I didn't know what it was I did. Or was I suppose to be asking for forgiveness for not being valiant but valiant in what? How could I know? So I just kept trying to be a good Mormon.
It was the birth of our daughter that opened pandora's box. I allowed myself to see the spiritual abuse of the church, the brainwashing, the fake love bombing and no way, no how were we going to subject our daughter to that. I had made a commitment to myself that if I ever had children the cycle of abuse would stop with me. When I made that commitment it was because of the abuse I experienced before I joined the church. It was devastating to me when I opened my eyes and realized if we stayed in the church our daughter who wouldn't know the abuse I knew as an orphan would however experience the abuse of mormonism for I really believe that church's doctrine is abusive. It was time to leave the church and we did.
So abuse drove me to the church and abuse drove me away from the church.
I have told this story before and have taken some heat for it saying the church never taught that about being valiant but it is my story, it is what I was taught in that church and I'm stickin' to it, Mormon Doctrine is abusive to men women and children.
I was told this very same teaching: that said some people were more valiant than others in the pre-existence and therefore were born into better life experiences.
I was talking with my bishop and relief society president and SHE shared with me, this same teaching. I was trying to come to terms with the teaching's my own father (fanatic high priest leader) used, to justify the sexual and ritual abuse of his kids.
Needless to say, I was deeply hurt. Here I had gone to my bishop looking for answers to try to figure out what I had done to deserve the type of childhood I had had and this was one of the many answers I received.
I was talking with my bishop and relief society president and SHE shared with me, this same teaching. I was trying to come to terms with the teaching's my own father (fanatic high priest leader) used, to justify the sexual and ritual abuse of his kids.
Needless to say, I was deeply hurt. Here I had gone to my bishop looking for answers to try to figure out what I had done to deserve the type of childhood I had had and this was one of the many answers I received.
Soooooooooooooooooooooooo much abuse from 'leaders' who don't have a friggin' clue about how to help people in real-life situations...
Smoke & Mirrors is the so-called churches Real Motto!
Smoke & Mirrors is the so-called churches Real Motto!