Whenever DW and others talk about my decision to leave the church they say that I am “choosing not to believe the church is true”. I don’t know how to respond, I’ve tried to explain to them that it’s not really a choice for me, it is more of a conclusion after careful study. I can’t deny the verifiable facts and defend the un-Christ-like actions of those claiming to be his representatives on Earth.

If it’s really a choice then I don’t understand why anyone would choose dis-belief… I mean, why would someone like me (a sensitive and fairly nice guy) possibly choose to hurt the people I love, risk my marriage, and turn my life upside down when it would be so much easier to just believe?

Granted, I did make the choice to investigate and examine the evidence in an effort to seek truth, but if the church was true then the evidence would support that claim and my investigation would have resulted in even greater faith. It didn’t.

Has anyone else had to deal with the “you are choosing not to believe” rhetoric?

Yes, and the way I usually deal with it is to tell them that I no more choose not to believe in Joseph's Myth than Dorothy chose not to believe in the Great and Powerful Oz after seeing the little old man behind the curtain working the buttons and knobs and levers. In the face of the evidence for Dorothy to ignore the man behind the curtain and choose to keep believing would be irrational.

I think the concept that there is some ability to choose what we believe is evidenced by the fact that people often change religions. The LDS has gotten many members by getting people to believe that the LDS was a better choice than their old beliefs.

That said, I think that a person with a healthy thinking process can not choose to believe something that conflicts with what is known. Believing in something that conflicts with something that is known is called denial.

They dismiss other religions. No big deal, right? The problem is you've dismissed THEIR religion. You've rejected their beliefs and, by extension, them. They get all worked up partly because they believe your eternal soul is in jeopardy, but also because the implication is that they are stupid for believing what they do.

and because, on some level, they know or at least suspect it's not true.

And it obviously is not true. It doesn't even require any study to see that. So, what--besides nothing--is wrong with choosing not to believe it?

@strivingforbalance: Quit buying into the twisted, defensive meaning of the word "choosing" that really means you don't believe because Satan told you not to. You *are* choosing not to believe it--based on facts, logic, personal preference ... you know, the things most people base their choices on.

Try asking DW what she means by why "choosing" or why she chooses to believe something that's obviously not true.

Dead on Stray Mutt!

Muslims say I am going to hell too! Are they right?

Hey I have good news and bad news Prez Monson...

Jesus has returned

What's the bad news

He wants to see you at the cathedral of the madeliene

;-)

I think your answer is perfect as it is already, strivingforbalance. They choose not to accept your answer.

But it's not their fault. They can't even fathom for even a nanosecond that the Church might actually not be true.

One can't know the real truth unless they're brave enough to do the studying, and then the evidence is so glaring that there's no way that it can be denied. Denying it sure can be a choice though. I've seen it happen.

It takes real bravery to search out and then accept the truth.

In short, they don't like it so it has to be your fault.

The only response I think I could use would be "Yes, I *chose* to be honest and to follow the truth as I found it. I'm sorry you haven't chosen the same degree of personal integrity for your own lives. It must be very painful for you."

And leave it at that. It lets them be on the receiving end of judgement but isn't nuclear explosion strength. :)

Ah yes .... the illusion of "free agency" rears its ugly head once again.

I am in exactly the same position with members of my family. I have heard those very words. What one believes just is, just as truth just is. You cannot help what you believe, after studying the evidence.

Could you or I choose to believe in Mormonism after studying? Hell no. It was not a choice for me, at least that is how I see it; in otherwise, after study, it was no longer a choice to believe or not to believe. Mormonism is not true, therefore I cannot continue to believe in it.

I totally get what you're saying. It reminds me of the following post I created a few days ago:

"Is Belief a Choice?

So I often hear people make the comment that you "choose" to believe or not believe in God (or some religion). While I agree that some people might choose not to look at reasons or evidence for or against a particular belief (in other words choose to remain ignorant or stubborn), I don't know if I agree that people really "choose" beliefs such as in God or religion.

In my own situation I went from a belief in Mormonism to being agnostic/atheist. I don't feel that I "chose" to not believe in God, it just kind of happened. I actually WANTED to believe in god and Mormonism, but I just didn't. In my mind things just kept pointing to the conclusion that Mormonism (and Christianity) was man-made. I struggled for several years TRYING to believe, but my doubts gradually overcame my religious beliefs and in the end I was no longer a believer.

Why are 99.9% of the people in the Middle East muslim? Why are 90% of people in North and South America Christian? They were raised that way. So cultural upbringings obviously influence what people believe. When people come in contact with new information and ways of thinking, their beliefs often change. I started reading "anti-Mormon" books on my mission which opened my mind and resulted in me losing my belief in Mormonism. I didn't read it to convince myself that the church was hogwash or anything. I read it in order to be educated about criticisms of the church so that I could answer questions investigators were asking me. It had an effect I didn't anticipate nor wanted at the time. I am now glad, but at the time I did NOT WANT to disbelieve but it JUST HAPPENED.

So in other words I guess it sort of irks me when people, whether they are believers or non-believers, say people CHOOSE to believe or not believe something. What think ye?"

I liked anonymous skeptic's post:

"No, belief is not itself a choice. Belief is the end result of actions which we may or may or may not choose to take. One might attempt to change their beliefs by considering or entertaining certain notions with or without a measure of skepticism... to consider an idea rationally or logically or to consider it irrationally and emotionally.

When a believer asks a non-believer to consider something of a religious nature, they are frequently asking the non-believer to suspend rationality in favor of emotionality."


Its frustrating when Mormons will pull the "you're CHOOSING not to believe." In my opinion belief isn't really a choice. Its the way we conduct our lives that CAN affect what we believe. If one chooses to be close minded and to put their fingers in their ears then their perception of reality will be drastically different than someone who chooses to learn as much as they can about the world around them.

Take for example two brothers who both believe in Santa Claus. The older one hears some rustling downstairs on Christmas Eve and decides to go downstairs to see if it really is Santa Claus. He goes down peaks around the corner and sees his parents putting down all the presents under the tree including the ones marked "From Santa." There is no Santa Claus to be seen. It suddenly dawns on him that Santa isn't actually real and its just made up by his parents. As much as he'd like to believe in Santa, he realizes right then and there that its just a fairy tale and he JUST CAN NO LONGER BELIEVE no matter how bad he wants it to be true.

So he runs back upstairs and tells his little brother that Santa isn't real and that its only Mom and Dad. This new revelation disturbs his brother so much that he tells him to shut up and yells, "he is too real!" And then he tells his brother to go downstairs and look for himself. He refuses and tells him to leave him alone. He doesn't need to see because he "knows" Santa is real. He refuses to entertain the notion that Santa might not be real and he refuses to look at the evidence that might show him he is not real. The older brother on the other hand, whether intentional or not, was exposed to new information that changed his world view and hence his belief system. He cannot deny what he just saw and his belief changed even though he'd rather believe in Santa.

Most true believers aren't concerned about objectivity or truth, they're getting some emotional or personal reward from it, whether that's peace of mind, friendship, or a sense of higher meaning. Trying to convince them otherwise would be trying to break down their emotional foundation just like them trying to get you to believe would be like trying to break down your logical foundation. You already know what you know, and they will only believe what they believe until the Church lets them down or they allow themselves to look at things objectively; good luck. Don't worry about it; stick to what you know.

The comedian Ricky Gervalis was on the new tv Pier Morgan show .

When Pier asked him about his religious beliefs, Ricky said that he was an athiest. The intervier question his
nonbelief and Ricky said "he couldn't help it and that was all there was to it. He was born that way".

Ricky then went on to state that Pier couldn't help the fact that Pier was a believer. He, however, just couldn't do it.

Nuff said. Perhaps that applies to all of us. We just have no choice. It's just the way we are so deal with it.

I am going to use that from now on. No arguments...it just is the way we are and it is.

Like that, born not to believe. Just the way it is.