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Posted by: Nick Humphrey ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 06:00PM

who made this up? when did it start?

are there any scriptural references of prophets and apostles only speaking as a man (what they said was later proven wrong)?

it is one of the perfect tools of the morg. with it, they are ALWAYS right (at least to their believing members) =)

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 07:49PM

D&C 21:4-5 commands the church to "give heed unto ALL [Joseph Smith's] words... For his word ye shall receive, as if from MINE OWN MOUTH..." [emphasis added].

This idea was the basis for conferring the same reverence on succeeding prophets, in the common expressions "when the prophet speaks, the debate is over (or) the thinking has been done."

Also in the often cited statement by Wilford Woodruff in OD-1 that God would never allow a prophet to "lead the church astray" [by teaching false doctrines or giving false information].

As Orson Hyde commented in the debate in the Quorum over Brigham Young's "Adam-God" doctrine, the prophet may somehow be mistaken about something like the value of a horse, but on doctrinal matters, if you don't accept what the prophet says, you "lay the axe to the root of the tree." So the entire quorum accepted "Adam is God" except for Orson Pratt, who was almost kicked out for his refusal to accept it.

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Posted by: Nick Humphrey ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 07:27AM

RPackham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the prophet may somehow be mistaken about
> something like the value of a horse,

does anyone know of any scriptural references where a prophet was mistaken about something even trivial such as this?

i'm also still looking for a source to the common rhetoric most members seem to repeat about "speaking as a man..."

thanks for the other info richard =)

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Posted by: Nick Humphrey ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 08:06AM

i searched lds.org using phrases like:
speak as a man
speaking as a man
spoke as a man
speak as a prophet
speaking as a prophet
spoke as a prophet

and here's what i found:

by James Allen, Assistant Church Historian in 1972:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=b602535cedb1c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

"
In 1840, for the first time in Latter-day Saint history, the President of the Church came out in clear opposition to a candidate for the presidency of the United States. From this time until his death the Prophet engaged in considerable political activity. In his mind, political action was necessitated by the circumstances, and any action he took was in the full belief that it would best protect the interests of the kingdom of God and its people. At the same time, it is significant that Joseph Smith did not make his political opinions a matter of religious faith or equate them with revelation, even though he obviously hoped and expected that the Saints generally would follow his lead. In 1843, for example, he made the following declaration to a group working on the Nauvoo Temple:

“There is one more thing I wish to speak about, and that is political economy. It is our duty to concentrate all our influence to make popular that which is sound and good, and unpopular that which is unsound. ’Tis right, politically, for a man who has influence to use it, as well as for a man who has no influence to use his. From henceforth I will maintain all the influence I can get. In relation to politics, I will speak as a man; but in relation to religion I will speak in authority.”

And in connection with a local election of that year he declared: “The Lord has not given me a revelation concerning politics. I have not asked Him for one.”
"


and this from russell nelson in 1985:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=41068949f2f6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

"
Over the years of my service to President Kimball, I was often asked the questions, “When does President Kimball speak as a prophet? And when does he speak as a man?”

I never asked myself those divisive questions. I only asked, “How can I follow him better and become more like him?” By his example, he became my great teacher.
"


from gordon hinckley in 1992:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=ccb194bf3938b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

"
I remember as a small boy seeing President Joseph F. Smith. I do not recall the details, but I have in my mind a picture of him as a man with a flowing beard whose voice was not strong. I have since read much of what he taught. And I know that he spoke as a prophet of the living God.
"


http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=f5699209df38b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

"
I so pray as I give you my testimony that he [ezra benson] is the prophet whom the Lord has trained and sustained through all of these years to speak as a prophet unto the nations and as our leader
"


http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=9cdd94bf3938b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

"
It was at a subsequent meeting of the society, held on 28 April 1842, that the Prophet, speaking as a prophet, declared: “This Society is to get instruction through the order which God has established—through the medium of those appointed to lead—and I now turn the key to you in the name of God, and this Society shall rejoice, and knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time—this is the beginning of better days to this Society.” (Minutes, 28 April 1842; spelling standardized.)
"

and lane johnson (quoting russell nelson), assistant editor, 1982:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=6ff5aeca0ea6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

"
Obedience to a request from the president of the Church to pray for a people or to study a language is only one facet of Russell M. Nelson’s obedience to the maxim “Follow the prophet.” He is baffled when he hears people ask questions like, “Is it really the will of the Lord that we do everything that President Kimball says?”

“The Lord said, ‘Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same,’ ” he reminds us. “My experience is that once you stop putting question marks behind the prophet’s statements and put exclamation points instead, and do it, the blessings just pour.

“I never ask myself, ‘When does the prophet speak as a prophet and when does he not?’ My interest has been, ‘How can I be more like him?’ ”
"


and marion romney in 1976:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=55fe5930f289b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

"
Some people who claim to believe in the living prophets get confused over the statement of the Prophet Joseph Smith “that a prophet is a prophet only when he is acting as such.” (The History of the Church, 5:265.) Recently a young lady came seeking an interview. She wanted to know how she could tell when a prophet is speaking as a prophet. A few days later a perplexed young man came, questioning the recent restatement of the First Presidency of the Church concerning who can be given the priesthood.

This is not the place for me to repeat what I said to them. Suffice it to say that one with an informed testimony is never confused by such questions. He believes that everything said or done under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit carries with it the “witness of its authenticity.” I would like to repeat that statement. (It is not mine; it is Brother Brigham Young’s.) Everything that is said or done under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit carries with it the “witness of its authenticity.” (See Journal of Discourses, 9:149.)
"


here's the context of the HOC reference (page 2815 http://www.archive.org/download/HistoryOfTheChurchhcVolumes1-7original1902EditionPdf/hoc.pdf ):
"
Wednesday, 8.--This morning, I read German, and visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that "a prophet is always a prophet;" but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such.
"

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