The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. [At this point, if you're like me, you sort of panic and want to talk to anyone who will listen about what is going on: this is a healthy reaction; it's a reality check ("who's the crazy one here?"); that you're confused by the narcissist's contrariness, that you turn to another person to help you keep your bearings, that you know something is seriously wrong and worry that it might be you are all signs that you are not a narcissist]. NOTE: Normal people can behave irrationally under emotional stress -- be confused, deny things they know, get sort of paranoid, want to be babied when they're in pain. But normal people recover pretty much within an hour or two or a day or two, and, with normal people, your expressions of love and concern for their welfare will be taken to heart. They will be stabilized by your emotional and moral support. Not so with narcissists -- the surest way I know of to get a crushing blow to your heart is to tell a narcissist you love her or him. They will respond with a nasty power move, such as telling you to do things entirely their way or else be banished from them for ever.

If you're like me, you get into disputes with narcissists over their casual dishonesty and cruelty to other people. Trying to reform narcissists by reasoning with them or by appealing to their better nature is about as effective as spitting in the ocean. What you see is what you get: they have no better nature. The fundamental problem here is that narcissists lack empathy.
Lacking empathy is a profound disturbance to the narcissist's thinking (cognition) and feeling (affectivity). Even when very intelligent, narcissists can't reason well. One I've worked with closely does something I characterize as "analysis by eggbeater." They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't grasp the meaning of the written word either -- because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words. (Discussions with narcissists can be really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of the same words means that they are following a line of conversation or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies, apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others are talking about.) And, frankly, they don't hear all the words, either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it. This is not merely a bad habit - it's a cognitive deficiency. Narcissists pay attention only to themselves and stuff that affects them personally. However, since they don't know what other people are doing, narcissists can't judge what will affect them personally and seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get trouble back. They won't take other people's feelings into consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get really pissed off by being lied to or lied about. ^

Narcissists lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations -- though, again, this can be obscure to casual observation if you don't know what they think their reputations are, and what they believe others think of them may be way out of touch with reality [see remarks on John Cheever elsewhere on this page]. Their moral intelligence is about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules they recognize are things that have been specifically required, permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they know personally. Anyhow, narcissists can't be counted on not to do something just because it's wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can't stop them or punish them (i.e., they don't care what you think unless they're afraid of you). ^

Narcissists are envious and competitive in ways that are hard to understand. For instance, one I knew once became incensed over an article published in a national magazine -- not for its content exactly, but because she could have written something just as good. Maybe she could have -- she hadn't, but that little lapse on her part was beside the point to her. They are constantly comparing themselves (and whatever they feel belongs to them, such as their children and furniture) to other people. Narcissists feel that, unless they are better than anyone else, they are worse than everybody in the whole world. ^

Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. It is also connected to their overall negative outlook on life. ^

Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) -- or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again -- it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." -- sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave -- narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then -- well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence -- this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while -- a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't want to change -- they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and less outside influence to keep them in check.

Narcissists are hostile and ferocious in reaction, but they are generally passive and lacking in initiative. They don't start stuff -- they don't reach out. Remember this when they turn and rend you! They will complain about the same things for years on end, but only rarely do anything to change what dissatisfies them so badly. ^

Narcissists are naive and vulnerable, pathetic really, no matter how arrogant and forceful their words or demeanor. They have pretty good reasons for their paranoia and cynicism, their sneakiness, evasiveness, prevarications. This is the one I get suckered on. They are so out of touch with other people and what goes on around them that they are very susceptible to exploitation. On the other hand, they're so inattentive, and so disconnected from what other people are up to, that they don't recognize when someone is taking advantage of them. ^

Narcissists are grandiose. They live in an artificial self invented from fantasies of absolute or perfect power, genius, beauty, etc. Normal people's fantasies of themselves, their wishful thinking, take the form of stories -- these stories often come from movies or TV, or from things they've read or that were read to them as children. They involve a plot, heroic activity or great accomplishments or adventure: normal people see themselves in action, however preposterous or even impossible that action may be -- they see themselves doing things that earn them honor, glory, love, riches, fame, and they see these fantasy selves as personal potentials, however tenuous, something they'd do if they didn't have to go to school or go to work, if they had the time and the money.

Really interesting post!
Is a narcissist the same thing as a sociopath? just wondering.

These are just something I found....

If you found it of no interest...no skin of my back...I enjoyed the veiled insult though...

Bet I read WAY too much into that comment lol...

Signs:
Glibness and Superficial Charm


Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.


Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."


Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.


Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.


Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.


Incapacity for Love


Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.


Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.


Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.


Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.


Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.


Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.


Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.


Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily

To me, it sounds like they have very similar signs...but maybe a sociopath takes it one more level up?

all of those are self prescribed assumptions. You're not a professional, so you can not make accurate diagnosis. You gathered all that up in your own mind, because most of the words you used will not be in any professional diagnosis, remedy etc. If you're going to quote something like a disorder, try using web md. Here's the full diagnosis and symptoms narcissistic personality disorder:

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder.[1]

The narcissist is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.[2] Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness.

The cause of this disorder is unknown, according to Groopman and Cooper. However, they list the following factors identified by various researchers as possibilities.[3]

* An oversensitive temperament at birth is the main symptomatic chronic form
* Being praised for perceived exceptional looks or talents by adults
* Excessive admiration that is never balanced with realistic feedback
* Excessive praise for good behaviors or excessive criticism for poor behaviors in childhood
* Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents
* Severe emotional abuse in childhood
* Unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents
* Valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem

Some narcissistic traits are common and a normal developmental phase. When these traits are compounded by a failure of the interpersonal environment and continue into adulthood, they may intensify to the point where NPD is diagnosed.[4] Some psychotherapists believe that the etiology of the disorder is, in Freudian terms, the result of fixation to early childhood development.[5] If a child does not receive sufficient recognition for their talents during about ages 3–7 they will never mature and continue to be in the narcissistic early development stage. It has been suggested[5] that NPD may be exacerbated by the onset of aging and the physical, mental, and occupational restrictions it imposes, as can most personality traits.[6][dubious – discuss]

A 1994 study by Gabbard and Twemlow[7] reports that histories of incest, especially mother-son incest, are associated with NPD in some male patients.

Theories:

Pathological narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity. In its more extreme forms, it is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). NPD is considered to result from a person's belief that they are flawed in a way that makes them fundamentally unacceptable to others.[8] This belief is held below the person's conscious awareness; such a person would typically deny thinking such a thing, if questioned. In order to protect themselves against the intolerably painful rejection and isolation that (they imagine) would follow if others recognized their supposedly defective nature, such people make strong attempts to control others’ view of them and behavior towards them.

Pathological narcissism can develop from an impairment in the quality of the person's relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents were unable to form a healthy and empathic attachment to them.[citation needed] This results in the child's conception of himself/herself as unimportant and unconnected to others. The child typically comes to believe they have some personality defect that makes them unvalued and unwanted.[9]

Narcissistic personality disorder is isolating, disenfranchising, painful, and formidable for those living with it and often those who are in a relationship with them. Distinctions need to be made among those who have NPD because not each and every person with NPD is the same. Even with similar core issues, the way in which one's individual narcissism manifests itself in his or her relationships varies.[citation needed]

To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of others' needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen.[6]

People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined.[10] To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility. In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he/she may also manifest wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).

Although individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism, along with lack of empathy, make it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements.[11] With narcissistic personality disorder, the individual's self-perceived fantastic grandiosity, often coupled with a hypomanic mood, is typically not commensurate with his or her real accomplishments.

The exploitativeness, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, disregard for others, and constant need for attention inherent in NPD adversely affect interpersonal relationships.

Diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV-TR = 301.81)

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

It is also a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.

Rose, thanks for this. Makes a particularly good read when applied to TSCC as an organization.

Every time I read one of these descriptions of NPD, I learn something new that I hadn't noticed before. The contradiction and denial pattern is especially annoying. The solution is just to run like hell. I spent 15 years with someone like that, and I still get fooled by her sometimes.

I'll take what I can get. :^) Things are so much better now though. Thanks, Robert.

@SilkRose: Yes, even though you KNOW better! Same here. I still get sucked in, and it drives me nuts. Narcissists are insidious and once they know your buttons, you can't help but be hurt by them again unless you become a very suspicious, untrusting person which I don't want to be. I'm having to minimize contact, because I have to debunk everything she says once I get away. Argh.

That he put me through...he can STILL rope me into his craziness sometimes...even though I KNOW better...scary.

Do they also do everything they can do perpetuate all these things onto their children? Been there!

I "made these up in my mind"...and "I'm not a proffesional?"

Please, enlighten me...since you seem to know my background so very clearly?

Secondly...where exactly did I say I was or was not a proffesional? Just out of curiousity? I know it takes a genious to quote WEB MD and all...and us "laymen" are incapable of copying the DSM-IV.

EH...you are an interesting character...you make very vast assumptions about others. I never once said anything to make it sound as if I was attempting to make a diagnosis...as this is ILLEGAL unless you are licensed. You also have no previous knowledge of my educational, personal or clinical background. I was simply sharing something I found interesting.

Thank you for copying and pasting the "proper" terms for me :) I know it takes great strength, wisdom, and knowledge to do so.

I'll be the first to admit I have some of those traits, but not entirely unmanageable. We all struggle with something. Just by reading some of those, I can see those traits in others too. That doesn't mean that's the kind of person someone is. It just means people are human and have different challenges they can work on each day. Who's perfect anyway? Why did you post this topic anyway? Were you trying to point out the obvious about certain individuals that you may or may not like? Is it your job to point out other peoples flaws in general? Or did you just post it for "an interesting read"? is this topic suitable for this board? does it have significance to recovery from mormonism? Are there a lot of people in Mormonism who struggle with this disorder? I'm curious.

To answer your questions one by one:

Of course each of us has SOME traits of practically all types of disorders....no one is perfect. I posted on this topic, for several different reasons. One, I have experience living with an NPD person for several years...with the disorder ENFLAMED by the cult itself.

Was I trying to point out the obvious about certain individuals that I may or may not like? Well, not really sure what you are attempting to imply here? I've been on this board awhile...and most here know I say pretty much exactly what I think...you don't really need to read into my postings...they are exactly what they are...nothing more...nothing less.

Is it my job to point out other people's flaws in general? Mm...thats an iffy...my job? No...but certainly don't mind it if the situation arises and it is fitting...then sure...why the hell not?

Did I post this as an "interesting read"? Yes.

Is this topic suitable for this board? Well, I know the board rules pretty well, and I'm pretty sure you can't post just about almost anything...as long as you stay within those parameters...so in my opinion...yes. But, its up to Susan. If you are finding issue, or have a question in that respect, please feel free to email her.

Does it have significance to recovery from Mormonism? ABSODAMNLUTELY. Did you ever ATTEND the mormon church? It is FILLED with NPD starting with its founder.

Are there a lot of people in Mormonism who struggle with this disorder? From what I have witnessed...absolutely...but like you assumed...I'm no expert or nuttin....so I don't know...what do you think?

I read everything about the copy and paste i posted. I know what traits I have and I already know that some of your comments are aimed directly at me. I'm not stupid. That's exactly why I was the first to admit I have some of those traits that I struggle with. How can someone who has struggled with some of these things through out their life overcome some of them and just be fine and ok with themselves? I know I am for the most part fine with certain aspects and managed somewhat that can use improvement, but no one can honestly say that someone must be full blown narcissistic just because they want to share a little piece of themselves. everyone is self centered with something.

Everyone would like to be noticed with something, one way or another. I admit I tend to overindulge in that sometimes, only because I feel some of the things I want to share, some individuals don't give any credit or understand what I'm trying to express. I grew up in a home of 6 kids. I was second to youngest and the quietest one usually. I rarely got a chance to speak.

I was more of the strong silent type most my life. Any of my efforts I felt they went ignored an awful lot until I shared my talents and quirks. There was some neglect and abuse in the home, but not so much to the point where it was excessive. Who doesn't grow up in an imperfect home? really? something to think about ya'll.

I'm actually glad you posted this topic, although, i wasn't sure what it had to do with ex mormonism at first until you pointed it out. I think anyone can grow up in dysfunctional home regardless of religion or belief. it doesn't just include mormons a lone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2011 12:49AM by experienceheals.

I NEVER suggested this was about you or any other poster at all...it was actually referring to the church itself...and its innate ability to perpetuate or bring out this pattern in its members. Also, it was my experience when dealing with my ex-husband...a combat wounded/PTSD/TBI patient...who probably always had these traits, but the church made them SO SO SO much worse...aloong with his experiences overseas on multiple deployments. If you chose to read into what I wrote, I am not responsible for that or your feelings about it...only YOU can control those...not me. I never said ANYONE was full blown narcaccistic for sharing something about themselves.

For whatever reason, you read into this posting to make it about yourself...when it wasn't...then you go on to make assumptions about me...when you clearly know nothing about me. Had you read my story...you would have easily recognized this was about my past experiences with the church and my ex-husband. I'm not saying anyone "HAS" to read about me or my past...but don't make rash assumptions...

Like you, and many others here...we grew up feeling marginalized by our families or the church because of having too many kids, to young, and too quick...and wanting the cookie cutter lifestyle. Once again though...you are suggesting that this was about you...when it was in no way,shape, or form.

I promise...you will KNOW when I am referring to you, because as in this post and others...I will specifically address you by your Moniker...I'm pretty type A...I say what I think...I don't tend to sugarcoat things...


You are right...dysfunctional homes span across all religions/races/beleifs/ethnicities. I didn't grow up mormon...I grew up fundie Baptist...however I definately had major dysfunction similar to mormonism in the home.

You might do yourself well to actually read postings...and not assume that they are all about you. I don't speak for others...but for myself...I PROMISE you will know exactly when and if I am referring to you. I will address you by name specifically...

that's a part of my narcissism I think i have developed over a period of time from talking to other narcissists on this board. LOL! After feeling attacked by a few individuals, I start to feel like some things are directed toward me. I know I'm not like that all the time. hahaha! Maybe it's just when I come here. I don't now. You know there's a saying I heard somewhere. "When we're around those who are sick or mentally ill in one way or another for a period of time, those people can eventually make us crazy, sick or ill as well." That's why it's so important to keep ourselves in check once in a while, and encourage others to keep themselves in check too if they are capable of it and understanding that we care about them and maybe consider the things they are going through could use some attention. Different people at different times need proper attention because they may not know they are behaving in certain ways. you know what I mean I'm pretty sure.

Fabulous post and my ex fits so much of what you said. Wish I had known his condition sooner than I did. You could write a book on this. Have you?

Another narcissistic trait is that narcissists always think everything is about them. And if it's not about them, they insert themselves in to make it about them. Literally, they assume everyone is thinking of them all the time and that if someone says something it must be aimed at them. If it becomes clear that they are not the center of the situation, they create a way to make themselves the center.

Good job SilkRose. I understood you meant the church shares narcissistic traits and helps form narcissistic personalities.

helps to form narcacisstic personalities...or makes those with them even worse.

Its a hotbed/breading ground for it.

I guess because of its originator lol...

I liked your post EVEN IF YOU DID RIP IT OFF FROM THE INTERNET!!! How dare you???

;) heeheehee.

This is the most insidious kind of narcissism. One can live with this variety for years without realizing the number that the narcissist is doing on their mental health. My two sisters and I have had serious emotional disturbances all our lives, and have finally traced them to our 85 year old covert narcissist mother. In our 50s and 60s we are finally stabilizing. What's interesting with her case is that our one brother has always been her idol, and a sort of substitution for our dad who died at age 49. She is a completely different personality around him, enveloping him in a safe cocoon, while she does everything in her power to make her the females feel like we are bumbling idiots. It's often done so subtlely that we don't even realize what's transpired until after the fact. She also had problems with boundaries, lies a lot, and is very envious of others' accomplishments, possessions, and money, among other things.

You can research this disorder on the Web. What an eye opener.

I just read over that one a little bit...and you are right :S...it sounds like the worst of the worst...mostly because they hide it better and for longer...seeming to have a more lifelong affect on those they encounter.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that growing up...I cannot even imagine :S...Its odd that she chose your brother...I wonder if that was related to the "preisthood" thing, or simply because he was a substitute for your father? Sometimes we idolize those that pass on...especially if it was early on in life...and maybe she was projecting that on to him?

What's so hard is that there's no way he could relate to what we've gone through. She also has Codependency disorder, bigtime, with some dependency and depression thrown in. This woman can look and act so frail, and the next minute be, metaphorically, sticking in the knife and twisting it. It's insane.

Oh, and I live with her now. I've developed many ways of deflecting her abuse in just the last three months since I moved in, a real crash course. I think my self esteem is strong enough now to handle it, though.

Thanks so much for your concern, SilkRose. :-)

It seems like that was her intention...to separate her children...so that your brother cannot be a witness to her behavior? My ex-husband used to love to make people think he was a "victim"...and be slowly manipulating others to make me think I was crazyl...because NO ONE recognized it at first. Over time...thankfully, his true colors would rise and shine.

I'm glad you are strong enough now for what you have to live iwth...just be carefull not to allow her to slip back into that old role with you.

"I have PRIDE, I have POWER, I'm a BADASS mother, who don't take NO CRAP from NO ONE" :) Cool Runnings....

You failed to say where you had copy-and-pasted the information from...

It would be courteous to have done so...

I'll just hazard a guess that it was that "self-proclaimed professional narcissist." Gotta Google his name... Ah, there we are, Sam Vaknin... Sorry, worked way too hard this last weekend, and I'm in need of some serious Z's...

Am I right?

Okay, first a Cabbie note to "experienceheals": I noted the other day that ADMIN gave you a bit of good advice about not getting into other's business, and well, dare I say you might have a few entitlement issues of your own in your bindspots department...

Now, the relevance of NPD to this board is twofold: I suggest you first read Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" for his take on the subject. As part of his research, Jon interviewed a number of psychologists on the subject, and he offers a reasonable layman's interpretation of how it applied to the Lafferty Brothers, who are accurately portrayed as narcissistic products of the LDS Culture. Violent narcissistic products of the LDS culture...

And please, EH, don't try to snow me with your Google genius approaches.. Geez, "mother/son incest might produce NPD?" I don't need the statistical correlations to demonstrate that one... But in interviewing a client, I'm most unlikely to say, "Hey, are you a motherf----r?" BTW, I spent a year in a grad program--with clinical training--on NPD's--which are often found in tandem with addictions (note the gambling and sexual acting out mentioned above). I'm doubtful you could achieve the synthesis I did in less than for or five years; in a review I've posted here repeatedly on "Under the Banner of Heaven" I mentioned contact I had with a cadre of University of Utah psychologists on the subject... I believe Krakauer interviewed many of the same people...

Narcissism is a continuum we all operate on, and one characteristic of pathological narcissism is dichotomous thinking of the sort you've engaged in... "You're not a professional" is a pretty blunt black-and-white indictment. I'm not a professional anymore, either, but I still consult with them periodically, and I know the subject as well as anyone can know something this complex without having kept up on new theoretical/hypothetical developments (Nowadays the subject just bores me because jerks are such predictable heartbreaks; I'm far more interested in chatting with Simon Southerton about DNA evidence for migrations of Native Americans or Will Bagley on almost any historical subject).

Finally, it's been the consensus of many if not most on this board for years that Joseph Smith suffered from NPD (additional co-morbid diagnoses are also a possibility). Anyone who's looked at objective history on the LDS founder and can draw a few parallel lines can see that likelihood.

'Nuff...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2011 01:18AM by SL Cabbie.

Hey are you a motherfucker?

Ya gotta mark your sublines if you're gonna use language like that, other wise your post will get cyber-nuked...

That's why used the hyphens (I was afraid if I warned people, some who needed to read the joke would avoid the post).

I mean nobody thinks a cabbie is incapable of serious swearing, do they?

you're right, I do feel entitled to speak my mind, because like a lot of lds raised individuals who come from large families, felt undermined an awful lot. oh and I didn't "Google" it. I "Yahooed" it and found it on Wikipedia. and no I wasn't about to dismiss anything you had to say, so you could have saved your breath on that one instead of assuming. I think everyone has a little bit of narcissism in them. I noticed a few narcissistic quality sentences in your dialogue. haha!

It's interesting to read both the clinical analysis and the more personal observations. Sometimes it's hard to dive right into webMD because it is so clinical so having a more readable, approachable analysis of NPD is a great starting point and makes the more clinical stuff easier to understand. Thanks to everyone who added to this thread. I'm really fascinated with this subject at the moment and the best book I've read so far, as far as being readable and understandable that is, is:

Why is it Always About You by Sandy Hotchiss

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Always-About-You-Narcissism/dp/0743214285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295937449&sr=8-1

makes me wonder if motivational speakers, preachers, actors, athletes anyone who really enjoys being in the spot light have more than the average person traits of narcissism?

The part I liked in that book is that he pointed out how lack of personal boundaries and exploitation are the features that make narcissists the most harmful to others. Those traits often are overlooked in the lists of narcissistic traits. In my experience those are the moments of epiphany when dealing with someone whose a narcissist, when you realize that not only is everything about them, but they completely disregard normal boundaries and exploit you in ways other people would never do without any moral brakes.

Its become an age of narcissism because too many people in our society got stuck developmentally in their early teen age years.
Hard to deal with encountering so many in our lives though, so willing to suck the blood out of you.

Good book.

you think!

it's not all about you. You really should take a few breaths and read a post that irritates you a few times before jumping off the deep end. This isn't the first time I've seen you put your proverbial foot in your mouth here.

Relax a little and try not to go LOOKING for insults. Really, they aren't hard to come by so you don't need to manufacture them.

Just a little advice from someone with social issues. I'm just lucky enough that I got past the part about thinking the whole world was obsessed with my flatulence back in high school. Really, most people aren't that worried about others. ;)

That was so well written & descriptive that it made it very interesting & effective in conveying the concepts.
I am forced to see that my ex had a lot more narcis. personality going on than what I first thought (I thought it was just good old schizophrenia!) so it helped me understand not that I spend that much time thinking about her any more anyway.

the troubling thing for me is that I realize that I am terribly attracted to narc personalities. (do I dare ask why?) my best friend through out school could have been Joe Smith reincarnated.

so on to my current love/ Hate narc personality connection,
the one that I thought about the most while reading the article. this woman is something else. I determined that she was unusual & given the problems I had disolving my marriage to the other narciscist, I decided it would be best to avoid her. When she figured out I was avoiding her she actually started stalking me. I thought it was kind of funny. if I speak to her she is peeved about what ever I say innocent as it may be,if I dont speak to her she is peeved. Its impossible to have a conversation with this person, but on the one occassion when she demanded some answers, I told her this very thing. that got her really upset, I was just being as honest as I could.

SInce she is going to be unpleasant anyway, I dont bother to speak to her, which she sees as rejection which she cant stand. This has been going on for 8 years now including spanning a failed marriage of hers. I see her on a regular basis in a social setting.

I dont even have to say anything anymore & I dont.
If I look in her direction she is upset and often glares.
If I turn my back she is more upset. Sometimes she will move around to make sure she gets in my field of view. Sometimes its funny, but its also tiring/wearing. although she insists that she does not like me, which I know is her right & fine by me, she is horribly concerned with what I think about her & might be saying to others.

I am facing the fact that there is never going to be any resolution to this deal as it stands. apparently these people never change & they never really let up either.