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Posted by: bingoe4 ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 11:58PM

After a conversation about BKP my cousin told me he could tell that I was unhappy by my countenance. He said the total crap about people being tested beyond their tolerance....and other crap. Anyway it put me in a funk so I wrote this letter. What do you think?

I am not sending this to argue.

I was REALLY sad by your last post on my page. You think I am unhappy by my countenance? I had to look up the word countenance just to be sure what it meant. It means facial expression. You know I am unhappy by my facial expression, or maybe my overall bearing? Thats very presumptuous of you. I don't know anyone who can tell if a person is GENERALLY happy or not by one facial expression. Is that not what you meant? Sounds like something regurgitated over and over again even when its not clear what it means.

Additionally you would need to be able to compare the now me with the mormon me. How old were you when I left on the mission? You were in Phoenix when I got back, then I joined the Marines, you never really knew the mormon me. Want to read the weekly letters I sent to my mission president to see how "happy" I was? I told the MP that I wasn't sure of my belief even then. I tried. I wanted to believe. Where is it, 2nd Nephi where Nephi talks about working to gain a testimony? I did that! I read that part of the BOM over and over and made a list of what he did, and then did it myself.
It didn't happen. I never felt those warm feelings that are supposed to come.

I went to the MP and then Bishops (BISHOPS plural) they always asked me the same thing basically. What are you doing that you are not supposed to be doing, or not doing that you should be? So it was my fault I wasn't getting the warm fuzzies. I guess its my fault that I gave up though. You said we will not be tested beyond what we can bear. BUT, apparently I was tested beyond what I could handle because I gave up according to you anyway. I'm in such a funk that you think so little of me.

I didn't stop going so that I COULD have sex or do some other sin. Those actions were done much after the battle of my faith.

I left the church because I felt NOTHING. I stayed away because of things being said like what you said in your post. I have no desire to be in a church that is so PROUD. There is no way that you KNOW I am unhappy, or that you KNOW that I know the truth. That ALWAYS bothered me. Knowledge is not even what your god requires, only mormons talk about knowledge. Other religions talk about faith which is not the same.

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Posted by: topojoejoe ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 04:06AM

I like your letter, very sincere. I like the end when you talk about knowledge and faith. Very true.
I am not sure mormons even realize sometimes the extent of their arrogant words and actions. When they 'know' that you know the truth, and that one day you will come back. And they 'know' that you will lose your light and be forever unhappy unless living the one size fits all life set out in the church. They 'know' that if you had really tried, you would have succeeded in overcoming anything. It is very arrogant of them to assume they know your struggles, and what you think/did/did not do, why you left, and how you must feel and do now that you left.
I believe there is nothing more corrosive to living a good life than being made to feel guilt and like a constant failure because you 'don't feel what you should'. We are who we are, and only we will know how much we tried. No one else can 'know' anything for you. It comes down to one thing, the church is a big lie, so no amount of trying will change that. That is where that feeling of nothingness comes from, because we try to feel something, where there really is nothing.
I don't know if you will send your letter, but I enjoyed reading it. I hope that you live a live that is true to who you are and be happy. I don't know where I stand in my belief in God, but regardless, this life is short and we are meant to be happy.

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 10:07AM

Your last two sentences tell it all. Good lines. And I would leave it at that. Sorry this individual has bought into the "it's all your fault if you don't "feel the feeling" -Doubt he/she can understand that there is nothing to feel. You are the wise one, not your cousin.

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 10:47AM

"I was REALLY sad by your last post on my page."

"I'm in such a funk that you think so little of me."

The only two things that bother me about this letter are these two statements. I think it gives your cousin way too much power. The way to take it back would be to reframe the emotions.

For example the first one could be, "I feel sorry for you because of your last post on my page." This way, it's not your emotions that are driven by the other person. You are owning and controlling how you feel.

The second one, I'd delete altogether. Because it's not healthy to be in a funk because some small-minded cousin doesn't think much of you. I have a lot of cousins and some of them might even be small-minded, but I couldn't give a flip about any of their opinions of me. My self-esteem, or good mood, or positive feelings about myself are not wrapped up in what some random cousin thinks of me. Your cousin's opinion should be completely irrelevant to your emotional state.

I think skipping or reframing those two sentences would be a good way to take your power (over your self-opinion) back.

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Posted by: bingoe4 ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 07:56PM

I really value this advice! Makes a lot of sense! Thank you!

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Posted by: Steven ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 11:12AM

They think they "KNOW" everything via the "spirit" - almost an extra sense, whereas the fact of the matter is they don't "KNOW" shiz. The morg has conditioned its sheepie into relying solely about feelings and emotions as evidence, because the geriatric 15 know the objective evidence and facts are weighed so much against them. Your cousin is simply demonstrating how he has been conditioned to act and behave all of his life. They also have preconditioned notions that all those who leave the church are unhappy. The facts say otherwise you know the morg corridor leads the nation in anti-depressants. The end result is that it makes morgbots behavior really weird in social situations. Seriously, who else beside a morgbot would say something so weird? Morgbots are social misfits outside their paradigm.

By the way, my son is graduating tomorrow from MCRD. Flying out tonight. Thanks for all your advice, which really made a difference.

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 11:51AM

The “I know” statement that is used as an accusation in this case is a statement of certainty about that which is an impossibility for another human to know and is therefore false. No one can know about life before death, life after death or what someone else’s state of mind is especially when the person accused of “knowing it but not showing it” has imparted what his state of mind actually is and the “knower” in this case is practically demanding the other person to think like they are “supposed to”.

These are unknowable things. Therefore the “I know” statement is false and a lie.

When I participate in discussions and I hear statements of certainty about the unknowable, I know that the discussion has moved into the emotional bias realm and that truth is not to be found there.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 12:41PM

First, great letter, it addressed so many cliches that TBM's use. I have gotten into a similar "arguments," so here are my 2 cents.

If he pushes back about the "you will come back" try asking him this:

You say, you "know" I will come back, but how many people actually do? The majority of people leave the church and never ever come back. Why if they are so miserable outside the church, do they not come back?

If he responds with more cliches, you can address them individually. Usually they say something about sin being more pleasurable, which you can just ask.

"so, you admit that your church is more miserable than "sinning?" You can't have it both ways. Either people are happy in the church and miserable without it, or they are happier out of the church and miserable in it. Which one?

This usually at least gets them thinking for a bit.

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Posted by: WiserWomanNow ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 12:52PM

He is NOT in "listening" mode. In his mind, YOU are the one "apostasizing;" therefore NOTHING you have to say for yourself is valid. PERIOD!

In coming out of the church, it is a shock to realize that even family members who loved and respected us while we were obedient TBMs, are now deaf to anything church-related that we say. Therefore, if we say anything counter to the Church party line, all we do is give them an opportunity to tell us once AGAIN that we are wrong and need to repent.

It is painful to lose the goodwill of those we love. And, it is inevitable. THEY are still blinded by the cult. Unless or until the day comes when THEY are struck by cog dis, they will be blind to it.

Bingoe4, you deserve to have friends who care how you feel NOW and who listen to your views with respect and interest. Seek out new friends who will support and applaud you for your courage and integrity in following what YOU believe to be right!

Good luck.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: October 06, 2010 02:03PM

I did challenge a friend when she said some of these things to me--and we muddled through and are still friends. I think the thing that irritates me the most is when they say, "I know you still believe deep down."

My daughter--who reactivated at age 20--is so sure we were all so much happier while going to church. We quit going when she was under 8 years old (but had her baptized). We were in a transition. She watches old family movies and thinks that tells all. She remembers when we were "happy."

Now--my son--her twin brother says, "But dad was still gay then and he was still cheating . . . " Yep. I CHOSE to be happy. The LDS church caused untold cog dis when dealing with my gay husband. I had to get out of that insanity to be able to survive.

I, myself, would send the letter. He probably won't listen.

I still say that some of these people feel threatened. My friends KNOW how much of a believer I was--they leaned on my testimony. That I no longer believe is shocking and scary to them (same for my parents--who had come to accept that I didn't believe).

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