I realize that was Gordon B. Hinkley's public reply related to whether or not the church taught that we mere mortals could one day become Gods (as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become). That is old news. But I brought this up because it seems to be that this catch phrase should become the church's mission statement.

If they do not teach that, then what exactly is the whole point of going to the temple? I am fairly certain that when you are anointed, take out your endowments, and are pulled through the veil, it is a symbolism of reaching the highest degree of glory and become a God.

Let's see what else they do not teach (or have never taught), besides the concept that mormoms will one day be Gods:

- It seems they never taught that the lamanites were a direct descendent of the jews
- it seems they never taught that the blacks could not receive the priesthood
- it seems they never taught polygamy, and it even seems that currently the 'new and everlasting covenant' has nothing to do with polygamy at all, and simply means that you are together forever
-it seems that the unchanging temple ceremony, signs, penalties, are forever changing, except for the young people going through they never have
- was there ever such a thing as blood-atonenment? I don't know that we ever taught that
- it seems that a prophet now only speaks as a man - so why blindly follow a man, when I know what is going on in my life a heck of a lot better than some man?
- it seems that the BOM was never a historical account - so if it was not historical, was there ever a Nephi, and a family that came accross the ocean? What about Moroni? Was he a character from a cute war story?
- even before I left the church, I could not remember the last time they taught anything for the Pearl of great price (they must have been tossed to the swines)
- it is very evident they never teach about Christ, as they are too busy making merry stories about all the true profits.

When I encounter young missionaries, it is not only a waste of time to discuss anything, it is impossible. Sometimes not because of their 'feelings' but because they have no clue what I am even talking about. YOu see, in their 18 years of life, nothing that ever happened when I was a member is even a remote recolection to them. It has been erased from history.

I am thinking that in another 20 years or so, the church some may know today, will not even exist in the slighest resemblance. This is a church where 'they don't teach that', and "that" is always changing.

It reminds me of an event in Sunday School class-
A n older person said that the reason people were born in certain places of the world was because of their level of faithfulness in the premortal life.

The class erupted into chaos as the under thirty crowd claimed that that was false, or that the church doesn't teach that, and never had. The older folks were stone silent.

I couldn't stay still and said loud enough "we don't teach that anymore, but we did". The Bishop later tried to tell me that I was wrong to do that, and that we didn't teach that. Yeah, right. He's my age and we went to Priesthood and Seminary at the same time. I guess he was a liar instead of the spiritual giant I thought he was...

That was when it really became clear. The things I learned as a youth were never taught. I left the church in my teens, and returned in my thirties only to discover that many things I knew (because they taught that) were now not only not true, but were taught by those without further light and knowledge....the true prophets.

It was important to my exaltation when I was a kid.
Teaching it as an adult was a threat to my salvation as an adult.

No, the only thing that is important is to follow the living prophet, only worry about what he says today and to commit myself to my duties and obligations.

This is so true. Apparently the Mormonism of today is quite a bit different than what I experienced in the early 70s. They used to teach that the church was a peculiar people, now they do everything just to look like part of the mainstream.

Missionaries who come by my house have NO idea that the church ever excluded blacks or taught that the Lamanites were descended from Jews. I hear they keep track of church attendance at BYU now, and that was never done. It's odd to see pictures of BYU students all wearing jeans because that was way discouraged, especially for females. And two piece garments? I was really surprised at that one.

When you've been away from Mormons for almost 40 years and then take another look it's interesting to see how the "unchanging gospel" has changed. If there's anything I hate, it's revisionist history.

I got in trouble for knowing what GBH said about Man becoming Gods, and saying it in class.

I got in trouble on facebook for quoting old church publications. I'd get in trouble for teaching some things out of the History of the Church Vol. II during lessons. I'd get dirty looks and suck the air out of the room for talking about Blacks and the priesthood.

The LDS church is an ever evolving thing, that only the current version is OK to talk about. God is apparently still making his church, and doesn't like the previous versions.

The beauty of GBH's statement "I don't know that we teach that..." is in how vague and filled with deniability it is. He's not claiming that it's not doctrine. Just that he doesn't know that they teach it. He doesn't even claim that they don't teach it (which can be proven by a perusal of Gospel Doctrine and RS manuals for the past couple of decades); all he is claiming is that HE doesn't know that they teach it.

Just another proof that the claim, "If you want to know what Mormons believe ask a Mormon" is totally wrong. The number-one Mormon is asked a question about Mormon beliefs and won't give a straight answer. If you can't get a straight answer from the number one Mormon what can you expect from the others?

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The beauty of GBH's statement "I don't know that
> we teach that..." is in how vague and filled with
> deniability it is. He's not claiming that it's
> not doctrine. Just that he doesn't know that they
> teach it.

Romney says the same thing when asked questions about Mormonism. It must be the new line that high-profile Mormons are told to say. Thus they can avoid either lying outright or having to admit just how non-mainstream and cultic Mormonism really is.

Hay guys, be fair! This is probably our God's first world. He is still trying to get it right. No one one is perferct, we are all progressing - even God it seems.

And our poor Prophets have to take all the blame for His big mistakes.

Eternal progression requires eternal mistakes. We're all learning as we go. Try giving Giving God a little forgiveness, and take some pity on his prophets who must deliver all the program updates he sends down!

Great Post.

I honestly loved the doctrine about being able to become a god one day. It kept me in the church for far longer than I wanted to stay. I really did want to endlessly learn and create. For me, it had nothing to do with control, and everything to do with knowledge and creation.

When GBH said, "I don't know that we teach that," it was like getting punched right in the face.

You don't know that we teach that? YOU'RE THE FUCKING PROPHET, ASSHOLE!!!

How the fuck can you not know what gets taught? And if it's "wrong" teaching, then who the fuck should be the one to tell everyone to not teach it, you useless twat?

And if it's "wrong," then what the fuck did I just waste decades of my life, and put up with ridiculous shit for?!?

Seriously. Well put.

Each of us put great effort for the ideals they showed us, but in reality they only showed us those ideals so that we would put forth great effort.

That is why you put so much effort into it for those decades, because they tricked you into it.

"We have always been at war with Eastasia"
(Ministry of Truth, 1984)

This irritates the hell out of me. I was taught all the "pre-existance valiance crap." I don't know why i am so suprised they are denying this.

When Hinkster said that original line, I remember feeling very distraught as a TBM. It bothered me. I spoke it over with a friend who was in the stake presidency, and a fellow scientist. He also felt troubled, but he reasoned that since the heart of the man->God doctrine was contained in the temple promises of being priests and priestesses, gods and godesses, stinkster had an obligation not to discuss it on public TV.

I nodded and said yes, for the time being. So I do understand when TBMs aren't troubled by this about face. It's hard to overcome the conditioning.

As for the other about faces, they are the reason I am out today. It's hard for me to understand why others in my family can't see it plainly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 01:22PM by Jesus Smith.

I really did stick it out for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only--forever family (pretending polygamy was only for those who chose to live it) and I thought I had no choice. If I didn't live it, I was damned.

Another teaching that many people don't remember is NO PIERCINGS--NOT EVEN ONE. I used that as an excuse not to get my ears pierced in the 1960s and 1970s (but it was more about fear of the pain)--Both my sisters wanted pierced ears and my parents forced them to wait (though my younger sister pierced her own at age about 9). Now--it is one piercing. We got to listen to stuff from a single seminary teacher about the scriptures in the OT about harlots, etc., with piercings.

What about "Saturday's Warrior"? All of those righteous Spirits saved for the last days
oh yeah
"We don't sing that anymore"

Present-day mormons are being gypped.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 08:46PM by longgone.

Gospel Principles Chapter 47, Page 305 (Emphasis added in CAPITALS)


"This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

What a Liar he was unfortunately! This is what the LDS cult does to otherwise seemingly decent folk. Makes them into liars for the Lord.

zeezrom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gospel Principles Chapter 47, Page 305 (Emphasis
> added in CAPITALS)
>
>
> "This is the way our Heavenly Father became God.
> Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of
> the Gospel to know for a certainty the character
> of God. . . . HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US; . . . God
> himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth,
> the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings
> of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).
>
> What a Liar he was unfortunately! This is what the
> LDS cult does to otherwise seemingly decent folk.
> Makes them into liars for the Lord.


that is the worst part, that he did know and lied about it. That is the essense of the church right there... when something said of old that now sound ridiculous, simply lie about it, then erase it (see Jod3:360 comment: The new edition of 2009 eliminated that portion. (n/t) ), like it never happened.

In an attempt to defend and explain himself to the general population of the church and in public at the same time, GBH actually quoted the very quote above from the teachings of Joseph, except he stoped short of the full quote, and left out all the portions after "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God."

In doing this he was able to remain obscure to the general public (gentiles) about what is meant in mormonism 'to know for certainty the character of God', and also for the mormom insiders, they knew what immediately followed to complete that teaching...HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did".

So in a miracle of PR, GBH manage to both, lie and tell the truth, with cherry picking partial teachings, while pretending to apologize and explain. It seems that the pretend apology was GBH greatest gift and talent. He must have been honning his skills for Mountain Meadow.

"It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God."

Lectures on Faith

http://www.centerplace.org/hs/dc/lec-003.htm
Lecture 3rd:
[Lec 3:4] Second, a correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes.

Lecture 4th:
[Lec 4:1a] Having shown in the third lecture, that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation,

[Lec 4:1b] and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to the exercise of faith necessary to the enjoyment of eternal life,

[Lec 4:1c] and that correct ideas of his character lay a foundation as far as his character is concerned for the exercise of faith, so as to enjoy the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of eternal glory;


Lecture 5th:
Lec 5:2a] There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things - by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible;...

[Lec 5:2c] They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness.

[Lec 5:2d] The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man - or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image.

[Lec 5:2e] He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him;

[Lec 5:2f] and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name;

[Lec 5:2g] and is called the Son because of the flesh - and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer, or in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be.

HOWEVER--------

1842 D&C 130 (added to LDS D&C 1878)
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

All I can really say is GREAT POST raptorjesus!! HOLY F'in great. LOVED IT. Exactly what I feel and think, just afraid they will erase my posts... YOU DID IT.. GOOD FOR YOU!!

When you've been away from the church 35 years and then take another peek you can way see how doctrines have been changed around, and earlier teachings denied. It's as if all the things I heard back then were erased by aliens. Creepy.

I used the Search function at www.lds.org and "Heavenly Father was once a man" and the results included:

1. Chapter 4: Knowing and Honoring the Godhead
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young

He taught further that God the Father was once a man on another planet who “passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality” (DBY, 22). Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth [see Hebrews 12:9]; and they were born spirits in the eternal world.

14. Chapter 47: Exaltation
Gospel Principles

He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46). Imagine what joy each of us will have when we return to our Heavenly Father if we can say: “Father, I did what you wanted me to do.

Using "God was once a man" in the Search resulted in:

1. I Have a Question
Gerald N. Lund
I Have a Question
Ensign
Feb. 1982

President Lorenzo Snow’s oft-repeated statement—“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”—accepted as official doctrine by the Church? It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > February 1982

4. The Fulness of the Gospel: The Nature of the Godhead

The Nature of Man Not only do we know that God possesses a glorified body of flesh and bones, but from this restored understanding of the nature of God flows the Latter-day Saint belief regarding our nature and potential. The Prophet Joseph Smith once taught: “It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, … and that He was once a man like us.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Liahona > January 2006

23. The King Follett Sermon
Joseph Smith Jr.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > April 1971

37. Our Great Potential
Spencer W. Kimball

We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” This is a power available to us as we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to organize, to control native elements. Remember what was said a while ago, that “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.”They came with the definite understanding that they could return to become like God and go forward in their great development and progress.

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > May 1977

40. Lesson 1: Who Am I?
Aaronic Priesthood Manual 2

OBJECTIVE: Each young man will understand that he is a son of God and can become like his Father in Heaven.

PREPARATION Materials needed:

1. A latter-day prophet, Lorenzo Snow, summarized this teaching clearly when he said, “As man is God once was; As God is, man may be” (in Thomas C. Romney, The Life of Lorenzo Snow [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1955], p. 46).

Gospel Library > Lessons > Aaronic Priesthood

From Mormon Apostle Boyd K. Packer's article, "The Quest for Spiritual Knowledge", in the January 2007 Ensign:

"From a talk given at a seminar for new mission presidents on June 25, 1982."

"You Can Do the Lord’s Work

"There is great power in this work, spiritual power. The ordinary member of the Church, like you, having received the gift of the Holy Ghost by confirmation, can do the work of the Lord.

Years ago a friend told this experience. He was 17 years old and with his companion stopped at a cottage in the southern states. It was his first day in the mission field and was his first door. A gray-haired woman stood inside the screen and asked what they wanted. His companion nudged him to proceed. Frightened and somewhat tongue-tied, he finally blurted out, “As man is God once was, and as God is man may become.”

Strangely enough, she was interested and asked where he got that. He answered, “It’s in the Bible.” She left the door for a moment, returned with her Bible. Commenting that she was a minister of a congregation, she handed it to him and said, “Here, show me.”

He took the Bible and nervously thumbed back and forth through it. Finally he handed it back saying, “Here, I can’t find it. I’m not even sure that it’s in there, and even if it is, I couldn’t find it. I’m just a poor farm boy from out in Cache Valley in Utah. I haven’t had much training. But I come from a family where we live the gospel of Jesus Christ. And it’s done so much for our family that I’ve accepted a call to come on a mission for two years, at my own expense, to tell people how I feel about it.”

After half a century, he could not hold back the tears as he told me how she pushed open the door and said, “Come in, my boy. I’d like to hear what you have to say.”
____________________________________________

Either Nelson is suffering from old-age memory loss or he's being disingenuous (I suspect the latter).