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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 11:28AM

http://ldsmag.com/article/1/12961

There are so many fun things in this article, I'll just pick a random paragraph and pick at it.

"Some, including myself, take a position that falls in between these two options. I agree, in fact, with the position articulated by Brant Gardner is his book, The Gift and the Power, wherein he argues that Joseph Smith translated by way of a “functional equivalence.” In this model, argues Gardner, the translation “adheres to the organization and structures of the original but is more flexible in the vocabulary. It allows the target language [English] to use words that are not direct equivalents of the source words [reformed Egyptian], but which attempt to preserve the intent of the source text.”"

What Ash is saying: We have no fucking clue what we're talking about but we'll confuse the sh!t out of you and hope you just go along with us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2013 11:29AM by Jesus Smith.

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 11:48AM

Ya think Mikey! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

“Joseph would “see” the English translation of the Nephite text when he put is face into the hat with the seer stone. Anyone who tries to copy this process—with or without a hat—will quickly discover that you cannot see (let alone read) any text so close to your face.”

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA……………………………catch breath……………….. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

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Posted by: Ctus ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 12:15PM

Keeeeeeeeeeeep streeeeeeeeetchiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing, Miiiiiiiikeeeeeeeey!!!

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 04:39PM

Some more fun quotes:

"Joseph Smith was not a “translator” in the Academic sense."

That's their way out now. We can't critique Joe Smith's "translation" (now in quotes) by academics standards. Poof! All the studies showing joe's full of sh!t are no longer valid. How convenient.

"In the darkness of the hat it seems likely that the English text which Joseph saw was in his “mind’s eye.” "

I hope they stick with this one. It's essentially what we critics say. It's all in Joe's mind. They agree. They just believe god put it in Joe's mind. We say he just imagined it all by himself. That places the difference between critics and believers at whether Joe was in touch with god or just had a touch of madness. I think we know where the evidence points...

" Joseph actually saw the spelling of at least some Book of Mormon names."

So Ashtray is saying that Joe didn't translate, he saw English words while looking in a hat. That it was God who placed the words in Joe's mind's eye, and such that Joe could spell out the words to scribes. So, then Mikey, why did it take ~4000 corrections to God's spelling?

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 04:24AM

Ah, yes, the old "mind's eye"...

Do you think this eye was the same as the "spiritual eye" which was the recipient of the vision (not the literal) golden plates?

Or was it the same eye that saw all of time at once, per Moses when he was taken up to heaven (Kolob)?

Also, not to hijack the translating thread, but if celestial bodies are seen with the mind's eye, or spiritual eye, then how could HF's celestial member impregnate Mary?

Ashtray answer:

It was not a member impregnation in the academic sense. The ancients viewed these things differently and faithful prophets, inspired by God, have attempted to make to make these events isochronic to us, simplified by the use of approximation of terms rather than literal translation...


Anagrammy

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 04:36AM

I always thought that Joe's mind's eye was perilously close to his big brown eye... or in other words, he was pulling it out of his arse.

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 09:04AM

Mormonthink responded to Ash's first translation article.

http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm#ash

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 04:58PM

God moves in rediculous ways, his brainwashing to perform.

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Posted by: spanner ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 05:40PM

They are trying to lay out evidence from the text, that Joseph didn't imagine it all on the spot. He read/memorized from a written document.

This basically supports the theory laid out on Mormonleaks. There was a group of authors, and Oliver was in on it. For the majority of time while they were unobserved, Joseph would have just been reading out the text to produce the printer's copy in Oliver's handwriting and maintain the facade.

The periods of peering into his hat and memorizing blocks of text were for the benefit of the dupes they were scamming.

He would not have reproduced memorized text perfectly word for word, which is why he couldn't reproduce the lost 116 pages. And the non-need to memorize after Oliver arrived explains why the work accelerated massively when Oliver replaced Martin, Emma, David, and Reuben. They would only have needed to put on a hat-show for visitors now and then.

It all falls apart because moderns are aghast at the thought of the hat-rock procedure, and because we get told he read from the plates.

If you read http://mormonleaks.com/ then read the apologists, it is as plain as your nose that apologist 'evidence' supports the multiple authorship theory proposed by Craig C and Uncle Dale (and others) much better than the angel/plates/magic theory.

The new Mormonleaks episode is due about now too! Waiting on tenterhooks.

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Posted by: exdrymo ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 08:47PM

>>>The periods of peering into his hat and memorizing blocks of text were for the benefit of the dupes they were scamming.<<<


Could it be that he also had a few pages of manuscript hidden in the hat too?

Do we know what the duration of these dictating sessions were?

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Posted by: Fetal Deity ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 12:59AM

Flexibility: a useful trait found in Book of Mormon translators and mental gymnasts.

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Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 01:04AM

Nice use of big, giant words while saying absolutely nothing.

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Posted by: enoughenoch19 ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 04:15AM

I thought JS got the BoM one CHARACTER at a time, not the gist of the book. Any excuse will do.
for exdrymo - the dictating sessions couldn't have been too long. Remember he had several wives to service daily and the number grew continually. In addition, he had to think up excuses and lies to tell Emma. Planning lies and being deceitful takes time and effort.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 04:18AM by enoughenoch19.

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Posted by: sherlock ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 05:22AM

I noticed that Ash quoted a couple of 'non-LDS' professors to seemingly try and add some weight to his arguments. Just a shame that he also conveniently forgot to quote other non-LDS professors that think the BoM is complete bollocks.

Plus it doesn't really matter how you try and explain the process of translation - the real crux of the issue is that Mormons have a nonsensical book that is increasigly being shown to be completely fraudulent and an embarrassment. Reformed Egyptian? DNA? Huge civilisations that haven't left one single artifact? Wooden submarines? Tower of Babel? Etc.......

Trying to ascertain all the intracacies of how Tolkein conceived the world that is 'The Lord of the Rings' doesn't for one minute alter the easily verifiable fact that he also simply made it all up in his 'mind's eye'.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 05:27AM

Ash's defence of Mormonism is that what we think words mean, isn't what God thinks words mean. Bonkers.

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