It usually doesn't work to go head to head against a devout TBM who is determined to reform an exmo or nonmo. That's like two mountain goats smashing heads. None of us want to break our own skull or anyone else's.

What can work with luck is to establish a caring relationship and find out what church issues bother the TBM or what concerns they've stored on the back shelf of their mind.

This gives us a chance to communicate in a meaningful way with no blank stares or impatient toe tapping.

A woman might have issues with polygamy or garmies in hot weather. Perhaps she's upset about hardnosed priesthood authority. Many women don't see it when they're mistreated but are willing to stand up for their children if they're hassled during bish interviews or in primary.

Sometimes men are upset about being roped into having more children than they can afford or being required to go on missions or take callings they hate. They, like some women, might be angry over conflicting scripture and false history.

Racism, sexism, and homophobia are important issues for many of us these days.

We can tell we're communicating if people look us in the eye, nod, look interested, and give thoughtful replies. If they stare into space and yammer about their testimony the minute we shut up, it's likely they haven't learned much.

Planting seeds is fine but they're much more likely to sprout and grow in fertile ground.

This is why I don't bother to invite locals and mishies into my home to try to change them. Another reason is because I hate it when religious nuts try to preach at me. So I try to live and let live unless I have reason to think someone wants my support to leave the mormon church. That's when I talk. It's when they show a glimmer of readiness.

Motivated ready learners soak up education. They don't fight it.

I left the mormon church before the internet, without books on the subject, and not knowing a single exmo and only a few nonmos. Yet, when I was ready to leave, I saw evidence of the church's lies every day just by watching and listening to mormons and reading their highly conflicting nonsensical scripture and articles.

If someone would have yammered head-on at me about leaving, I would have said, "I don't like your tone." Or I would have thought it as I turned my back on them and walked away.

I completely agree. If your friends and family know that you're out and not actively fighting against the church, you'll be the first person they turn to when the time comes.

On another note, your thread title immediately reminded me of a scene from the 1998 movie "Pi."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YatFF37gSBo

It's slightly gruesome, and admittedly a "dark humor" type connection on my part, so don't watch if that stuff makes you uncomfortable.

Anyway, the guy figures out the true nature of God and can't handle it anymore.

Look for the issues that bother them.

"Motivated ready learners soak up education. They don't fight it."

Your whole post makes a lot of sense.

I heard a quote today (badly paraphrasing here): "You can't use reason to change a mind that didn't use reason to make up it's mind in the first place."

In other words, if a mormon depends on emotion for belief, it's going to be tough to use reason and hard facts to change their mind. What's worse, TSCC lets emotion stand in and impersonate facts....

Sometimes teens join because of hormones or the need to belong to a group of peers.

Ten or fifteen years of maturing sometimes helps them develop better critical thinking. The problem is that at that point they're often committed with a temple marriage, TBM in-laws, and several indoctrinated kiddies.

I feel like I get some success talking to Mormons when I use the same language. I tell them the problems with their history and make sure to add, I love you, because I genuinely do. I feel bad for these people. I also try to make sure to tell them how much I want to help them. I care about their well being, because I do. I don't want them to waste their lives devoted to a church that is simply abusing them.

I tell them that the people are good, not the church. I basically try to use all their emotionally charged language. I think it helps reach some of them. I haven't had anyone say they are leaving because of my words, but I feel like they listen a little longer then if I jump straight to cult/pedophile.

If emotion is how they know truth you have to give them emotion.

Work your way up to a Bishop. Then, you have an army of minions who will relish your words and commands.

Don't forget to learn how to cry on que, and give great motivational speeches. Yeah. The whole heart-sell sishkobab thing works wonders, I kid you not!

PS, I did not misread your statement. I was just thinking who tbms REALLY listen best to.

In my mind I know that the words you are saying are correct----that fertile ground and desire are needed to have workable conversations, but when it comes to my TBM children I often lack patience and worry that it will never happen in my lifetime. Also, there are certain parts of MOmRON belief that gets me to the boiling point.

I have learned to walk away, punch my pillow, and all that, but still long for TBM children to discover the truth now, not when I lie three feet under covered with worms.

Sigh. (what's an apostate to do?)

For me the straw that made me look more deeply and rationally was when a Facebook friend said something off the cuff about BoA controversies and how not being able to resolve them led him out. All I thought was, what controversies? And started digging around. It hadn't even occurred to me that the Egyptian on the papyri were actual Egyptian. I had assumed that they were some other form, maybe similar to the "reformed" variety or something else.

There certainly is time in SM to write questions in the margins of hymnals.

You have to give lots and lots of oral before a TBM will let you penetrate their mind.

That's true though for most anyone and about anything.

Well Jacob, now I have the real scoop!

Well said and good info to think about.

I try to get them to separate emotion from the truthfulness of the church. My TBM mom absolutely loves Primary and the kids she teaches. I told her 'If the church isn't true, that doesn't mean you can't continue to love your Primary kids. Consider the truthfulness of the gospel as a separate issue from the relationships you have with the members.'

The other questions I like to ask:

If the church isn't true, how would you know?

If the church isn't true, would you want to know that you're giving 10+% of your income and 50% of your discretionary time to a fraud?

It's difficult. I guess the best way to go about it depends on the person you're talking to, and also what point you're trying to make.

I met one of my old TBM friends today. It was nice, but I was waiting for him to ask me "Do you still go to church?" or something like that, and he never did. We talked about everything except church. I was hoping to maybe plant a few seeds today when I met him, but the conversation never lead that way, and I couldn't randomly blurt those things out.

I think a large part of it is to steer the conversation in the direction you want so that you can make your point casually without seeming forced. If you just say "Joseph Smith married underage girls", then your agenda will be clear. However, if you've just had a massive conversation about polygamy, you could drop underage girls in and maybe get away with it, and the TBM will still keep talking to you in the future (so you can tell him even more).

To get through to the TBMs that are close-minded, you have to play the part of an "ally". It's the "milk before meat" tactic that mormons themselves use. You have to drop small little hints that might cause the TBM to think, or maybe even research, but you can't go too far that it gets obvious you're trying to deconvert them. Once they realize you're "anti" and want them to leave the church, they'll cut you out and stop listening to you. So it has to be little hints you drop, things that you could pretend were just little pieces of trivia you thought were interesting. The really shocking things shouldn't be the first things you say when you're talking to a mormon. They need to be warmed up a bit first.

It feels a little like cracking a special code or combination to a safe or bank vault. It takes just the right combination to get them thinking. I haven't figured out the right codes yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 07:23PM by snuckafoodberry.