Face it, most of us did not recognize the flaws and conflicting claims in the mormon church until we were much older and more experienced than the brightest 8 year old. My exmo brother said he saw through it at that age, but he is not typical.

This is why children need some protection from the morg and its indoctrination.

Often, I read about how parents send kids into bishop interviews claiming they're armed with information and the character traits to deal with an adult authority figure. Nothing wrong with telling kids they don't have to answer abrasive questioning, but that doesn't necessarily give kids adult sensibilities or make them capable of standing up to high powered pressure from a bishop.

Any parent in my opinion owes it to a child to be a buffer between their kid and whatever they consider to be harmful or degrading.

Want to keep TBMs from inflicting their beliefs on kiddies? Then don't send them to TBMs unprotected and unaccompanied. Don't put them in the middle of a fray to teach them and TBMs lessons about church history and such. Using a child to fight or make points with other adults is unfair to everyone involved, especially the kid.

That means as a parent I wouldn't expose my child to bishop interviews, not to missionary discussions, not to weekly and relentless cult brainwashing. Parents often know their kids are highly intelligent and mature for their ages. I'd try to prevent them being baptized until they're legal adults. I understand some kids are brilliant. But they're not always smarter and more mature than adults.

We left the mormon church when our daughter was almost four and we chose no religion, no church after that. DH & I were both converts so didn't have family in that church. We never "hid" the fact from our daughter that we had been Mormons because we wanted her to know what Mormons believe because chances are she would meet Mormons somewhere in her life.

When she was 10 and we moved there was no Montessori School for her so we enrolled her in a Catholic school.

One day she said, "Mama, can I be Catholic?"

I said, "No. You are not old enough to make that decision." But I didn't leave it at that. I told her about my becoming Mormon and how I believed that when one makes a commitment they must know what they are making a commitment to and the Mormon Church did not tell me the truth to what I was making a commitment to. I told her that when I discovered I could not and would not believe what they taught I left that church. I explained how we must get the facts and the information about any religion we might consider and that she could make that decision for herself when she becomes an adult.

I explored with her why she wanted to be Catholic and she didn't really know why and I suggested, "I bet it's difficult with so many of your classmates being Catholic and perhaps you feel left out." BINGO! That was why she wanted to become Catholic. And we explored that.

Then some months later that Catholic school decided to add another Mass to the school week so we took her out of that school and put her in the public school system and we had no regrets and I'm sure you know what she never talked about wanting to be Catholic again.

Cheryl, you said, "I understand some kids are brilliant. But they're not always smarter and more mature than adults."

Exactly!

So right about peer pressure and kiddies. That is why eight year old Mormons usually "choose" baptism along with a need to please parents, grandparents, and other adults. Plus they like the attention and party atmosphere.

Everything I knew at eight, I knew because I had heard it from my parents or had been taught it at school. Yeah, I was fairly bright, but I was at the very beginning stages of learning to reason for myself, of learning to gather and evaluate facts. I was at the very beginning of having valuable life lessons, experiences to develop understanding.

I was not at the beginning stages yet of having critical thinking skills however, because I was still being groomed to do what I was told. "Because I said so" was a phrase I heard many times in my life, which taught me not to question because the lesson was that I needed to do what I was told, not what I thought, by my own reasoning, was right. I was very used to being praised for doing what my TBM family wanted me to do.

My parents protected me from many things, unfortunately one of those things was the truth, and how to get to it.

When I was given the "choice" to be baptized, I was not presented all the options, all the information, or even anything else except, "Heavenly Father wants you to get baptized, so do you want to?" Who says no at eight?

Right you are. Kids that age are focused on pleasing their families and learning to fit in to society.

I find it interesting that most people agree that kids start questioning their belief in Santa Claus around the age of 6 or 7, and by age 9 they've figured it out (no spoilers here), so the golden time/tipping point for reinforcing belief in something that may not be true seems to be about age 8.

Very smart psychology Mormons, very smart.....

I had not thought of that and I think you're on to something.

Oh yes! That is pretty much the exact window where you are beginning to glimpse a child's willingness to play along with the society they find themselves in. And it is an age where they still know they are immature and are susceptible to adult pressures.
Even age 10 would be a whole different ball game.

I didn't really want to get baptised, but I witnessed first hand the kind of pressure some investigator children were put under. Every single Sunday, "Don't you want to get baptised yet?"
9 year old, "My mom says I don't have to."
Repeated every week no matter how many times the kid said my mom says I don't have to.

I didn't want that kind of attention. What I wanted more than anything else was to be left alone, and the quickest way to that was to put up with a little pomp and ceremony.
And while I was on my way to being left alone again, I had my chance to see if the bestowing of the holy ghost changed anything.
Hmm, nothing different at all. Except now my mother would berate me for "sinning" instead if just "getting into mischief".

Agreed.

They wear white, as if they were brides or grooms, and 'marry' Catholicism.

Baptim should be for adults only, especially with a word like "covenant" attached to it.

Mormons always seem so proud of themselves that they don't baptize infants and wait till a child is 8. Supposedly an 8 year old is old enough to "choose" baptism. As a mother who's had a few eight year olds, I think that there isn't an 8 year old alive who completely understands the commitment they're making when they're baptized. Children at that age are still learning and growing for quite a few years to come. For Pete's sake, a lot of Mormons won't even let their daughters pierce their ears until they're older, but don't bat an eye at baptism.

I think baptizing at age 8 is more about having the kids be at an age that they actually remember what they did rather than an age that they understand what they did. Baptize at age 5 or 6 for example, and a child may have no memory of it. But, if you wait until they're 8 they'll often remember it. Then when it suits your purpose, you can tell them that they "chose" baptism and entered into a covenant.

I understood. That's why I didn't want to be baptized even though I was a believer. I understood completely that I was using up my one get out of jail free card before I had even committed any serious "sins."

I also understood a year later when RFK was shot that it would mean that Nixon would be elected because he could beat HHH.

Point being I was not a normal kid and your observation I generally agree with. ;-)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2013 09:57PM by want2bx.

I agree with everything everyone is saying..... but frankly, I just thought I would like to share this video of an amazing 12 year old egyptian kid who is more politically savvy than most of the adult population

http://www.upworthy.com/a-12-year-old-egyptian-boy-flabbergasts-an-interviewer-they-werent-expecting-a-political-genius-4?c=ufb1%3D5

I actually do believe kids can be smarter and more proficient in some things than adults.

What I do not think is that they should be expected to make lifelong adult commitments before they reach adults.

It's up to parents to help them ease into the adult role very very gradually and respect and be realistic about their maturity level.

12 years old is when kids start to be aware of politics and a world larger than their family and immediate local community, and to be able to make decisions independent of adult authority. In my opinion, 12 years old is the minimum a kid should be before being baptised because before that they generally can't think for themselves at all, but really it makes more sense to only make that decision as an adult. How is the baptismal covenant less sacred or special than the temple covenant? If it's not less sacred or less important, then why do endowments as adults but baptisms at 8 years old? Makes no sense.

His statement that was something to the effect of......You cannot have truth if it's built on a foundation of lies.

There are millions of adult Mormons that can't seem to grasp that simple concept.

There is no Santa?? Boo hoo. You've ruined my day.

100% with the belief that babtism should not occur until you are considered an adult and even better, after that.

I strongly feel the same about sending brain-dead missionary teens out to spread any religion. Yep, they have surely had enough life experiences and studied enough to discuss religion intelligently. Right.

I screamed my opinion on another thread that I am firmly of the opinion that the lds cult is quilty of emotional child abuse on a lot of levels. The brain-washing the occurs around babtism is a big example.

"We don't do infant baptisms, the right age is eight."

Yeah, but are infants confirmed the VERY NEXT DAY like eight-year-olds are in mormonism?

Eloher and I always made a point to stress to our extended family what the boundaries of "acceptable sharing" is, and we always did a pretty thorough debrief of what they experienced whenever they spent time alone with our TBM family members. Sometimes they would come home and get a laugh about praying or some lame church video (or boring church service they attended). All of my kids (ages, 5, 10,11, 15) are pretty smart and find the entire idea of the mormon church either boring or silly. They have never seen the point of it. My 5 year old hasn't really been even exposed to it at all in his memory (yay).

Anytime we felt our boundaries were being violated we made sure to let them know in no uncertain terms that what they were "teaching" our kids is unacceptable. 9 years later and I think my extended family is just beginning to get it. We don't get "living scriptures" or the comic book versions of the book of mormon stories / bible stories or any major children's brainwashing materials from the morg anymore. They understand (finally) that it is not acceptable.

Now I digress - A few weeks ago my kids and I attended a birthday party for my cousin's 4 year old. For the most part he got toys and clothing from the aunts and cousins in attendance, however the single *big* present from his "entire family" (mom/dad/siblings), was a set of the articles of faith, each one the size of a 18-inch tall poster, written in symbolic language (like a rebus puzzle) so a 4 year old who doesn't quiet read yet can figure them out and learn them. The father - my cousin's husband - said (in a joking manner), "People say we brainwash our kids - well I say you gotta brainwash them early. Nothing wrong with that..." These mantras have no business being in a kid's head at all...

I wanted to say so many things responding to his statement, about how wrong it was to feel the need to brainwash his kids, that even though he thought he was kidding it was actually true;

However, since it was a family party I didn't feel like making a scene or being a party pooper.

Back to the point of the post --

I try to teach my kids how to make observations, and to use their brains to ask questions, experiment and try to predict what will happen based on their experiences and educated guesses. These tools help them to have an almost built-in BS indicator by age 8 or 9 that I hope insulates them from a lot of the weird beliefs and superstitions that plagued my own childhood.

Well that according to my little brother.

When I left the church, my little brother stated that although he respected my choice to leave, he questioned my right to "influence" my children in them resigning also. They were 18, 15, 14 & 12 when we resigned. I responded by saying that if I influenced them to be baptized at 8 I should influence them to leave as teens. He quickly informed me that "his children" had their own testimonies when they turned eight and joined LD$ Inc. "completely" on their own with absolutely NO influence from him or his wife.

I argued that he and his wife definitely influenced them in subtle ways. He denied this, but in the same breath questioned my ability to critically question the churches claims.

I found this humorous and funny that his 8 year olds were fully able to decide the truthfullness of mormonism with NO outside parental influence, while I at 40 years old was probably influenced by anti stuff and was not able to decide for myself or my teenage kids! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??????

One of my strongest arguments for not baptizing an 8-year-old is that a TBM friend's kid still believed in the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause at 9-years-old (even after being baptized).

If an 8-year-old can still be lead to believe in Santa Clause then there is no possible way the child can "make a choice" to be baptized into a religion they have gone to weekly for their entire life.

Truth. I sometimes see posts on here about how for such and such a reason, someone's kid has to get baptized or go to a worthiness interview, but they're "so smart" and have been taught all the right things to "outsmart" the missionaries, bishop, or whomever. I am always skeptical because 1) even the smartest, actually genius, child prodigy (which is so rare that it's practically useless to talk about here) is NOT emotionally or socially as mature as an average or even below-average adult, nor are they likely to be able to articulate themselves as well. They might very well have a higher IQ and some information, but there's still an imbalance of power and authority and a difference in maturity and social skills. If there's a conflict between your child and an adult, the adult is going to win, even if it's simply for the reason that your child has probably been taught to listen to and obey adults (especially if they've been raised Mormon). If 8-year-olds of TBMs are not, in your view, able to make their own decisions free of influence about whether or not to get baptized, your children of the same age are just as likely to be influenced. They're all kids. 2) You are your child's keeper. You're responsible to protect them from exploitation. As much as I understand that there are different circumstances for every family, and as much as I would never offer an absolute for practically anything, I'd say it's very, very unlikely that your child actually "has" to go to these things, especially not alone. You are legally allowed to be in the room with them and they deserve your protection. No amount of information you give an 8-year-old to read or say is going to be the same as actual protection from an actual guardian. That's just my two cents.

Maturation of the prefontal cortex continues until about the age of 25.

Honestly, no one under 25 should be considered able to "discern the truth" about anything very complicated.

http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/tech_assistance/etraining/adolescent_brain/Development/prefrontal_cortex/

catholic children take first Communion at about eight, but are not allowed to be confirmed until 12/13, which according to old Jewish law was the "age of accountability." ( moral choice.) That as I understand it is the age of the Bar and Bat Mitzvahs. Puberty was the right of passage time for Native children. Eight?@?@? I agree- clever, Lds church, clever.