|Subject:||The absence of the wheel sure is a more simple argument...|
|Date:||Jun 12 21:10 2004|
|with all this talk about DNA and Limited Geography
Theory and FARMS making the case that DNA evidence hasn't disproven the
theory that Native Americans are descended from a population of hundreds
of thousands of Siberians and a couple dozen Middle Easterners, is
making my head spin.
The simple argument about the use of the wheel sure seems like a more simple method of proving that Lehi and Co. are as made up as Batman and Robin.
So Lehi comes over and "forgets" to use the wheel. I'm sure that even a FARMS dude has got to admit that that is about as stupid as forgetting about fire or even forgetting how to eat...or breathe for that matter. As we all know, "forgetting about the wheel" isn't even in the realm of possibility.
The oldest wheel found in archeological excavations was discovered in what was Mesopotamia and is believed to be over fifty-five hundred years old. The wheel was used extensively in the Greek and Roman civilizations and of course was well established in Jerusalem when Lehi made his supposed journey, (Hell, logic would say that Lehi even used wheels in his "trek" from Jerusalem to the coast.) But then once he arrives in the New world, he forgets all about it!!
All the talk about limited geography and intermingling with Siberians and the other spin that FARMS is using to discount DNA research, doesn't work in explaining the nonexistence of wheels in the new world.
Well, I think it's safe to say that anyone skilled enough to build a ship capable of sailing to the new world, isn't going to forget about the wheel. So I'm sure, Lehi would have started making wheels as soon as the ship landed. Now once Lehi lands, any existing culture seeing this "new fangled invention" brought over by Lehi would have absorbed the wheel into their existing culture AND it would have spread through other cultures (including Siberian) in the New world .. coast to coast.. faster than you can say "FARMS IS AN INSULT TO FARMERS".
The wheel would have quickly become just as prominent in the New World as it was in the Old world. It would have in fact become as common as buildings, temples and statues.. relics of ancient wheels in the New World should be found all over the place.
So..DNA or no DNA, there is only one conclusion from the fact that wheels are not found in pre-European discovered America.... No wheels in Pre-European discovered America = BOM is full of it.
|Subject:||They didn't forget the wheel. They had wheels. Lots of wheels, but then....|
|Date:||Jun 19 02:59|
|They lost them. They lost every decent wheel they
According to the Book of Mormon, chariots among the Nephites and Lamanites were as common as Toyotas, Nissans, Fords and Chevies are among Americans.
Look at all these references to chariots:
2 Ne. 12: 7
7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots.
Alma 18: 9
9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.
Alma 18: 10
10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them.
Alma 18: 12
12 And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses and the chariots for the king and his servants, he went in unto the king, and he saw that the countenance of the king was changed; therefore he was about to return out of his presence.
Alma 20: 6
6 Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots.
3 Ne. 3: 22
22 And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.
3 Ne. 21: 14
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
Okay, I know people at FARMS may try to tell us that a Nephite horse was really a tapir (South American deer) and that a Nephite chariot was a set of load bearing wooden poles that the tapirs would drag behind them. (Not very fast transportation, nor effective for warfare, but then the Nephites were accustomed to being slaughtered in huge numbers so maybe they didn't really care.)
But I'm pretty sure that when the Book of Mormon says "horses" it means real horses and when it says "chariots" it means wheeled chariots. Now that leaves not the problem of whether Lehi forgot about the wheel, but rather a problem of disappearing wheels and horses. Where did all the wheels go? Where did all the archaeological evidence of horses go?
My guess is that those devious and less-than-delightsome Lamanites scoured all the land and collected every wheel that ever was made and intentionally ground up all the wheels into fine powder and then they scoured all the land and intentionally ground all evidence of the horses into fine powder. They then took all this powder and made the Great Sand Dunes in Colorado.
This is known as the Great Horse and Chariot Powder Theory, or Limited Powder Geography Theory, which may be published in book form by FARMS later this year.
As any good apologist will tell you, the Gospel really only needs a dash of absurdity here and a pinch of nonsense there to make it all make sense. Remember that next time the evil one tries to give you doubts. ;0)
|Subject:||If 'horses' doesn't mean horses, and 'chariot' doesn't mean chariot...|
|Date:||Jun 19 11:49|
|Those good folks at FARMS have got me thinking.
There are many animals and plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon that appear to have never existed in ancient America. There is also technology used by the Nephites and Lamanites that were never used by ancient Americans, to our knowledge.
SOME would say this indicates that Joseph Smith (or someone else in the 19th century) just invented the whole story, unwittingly using 19th century American flora and fauna, as well as popular (but erroneous) ideas about ancient American culture.
One defense currently in style among the Mormon apologists is that the horses in the Book of Mormon were really tapirs, and chariots weren't really 'chariots' in the way we, or people in Joseph Smith's time, would understand them.
The begs the question of why Smith would use the 'Nephite/Lamanite' word for 'Cureloms', whatever those are, but not the 'Nephite/Lamanite' word for tapirs. If Cureloms were really elephants or mammoths, why not say 'elephant' or 'mammoth'? Or if the Cureloms were some sort of dinosaur, why not say 'giant lizard thing' or 'rhino'? Perhaps the Cureloms was so different from anything Joseph could conceive that he couldn't come up anything close. I mean, the difference between a tapir and a horse seems pretty huge, but he made that leap. So maybe the Cureloms was just too bizarre to describe, even for God, who was inspiring Joseph's 'translation'. (Those must be some crazy creatures!)
I digress. What I really wanted to point out was that maybe there are other words in the Book of Mormon that we, and people in Joseph's time, may be misinterpreting as well.
I'll start out with 'abomination'. When, in Jacob chapter 2, the Book of Mormon says having lots of wives and concubines is an 'abomination', it really means: 'really fun way for leaders of God's church to get a lot of nookie'. I'm sure if we scour the ruins in Mesoamerica, or wherever we are saying the Book of Mormon took place these days, we will find examples of some authority figure getting to have his way with lots of women, or young girls, or maybe tapirs, that will explain why 'abomination' doesn't really mean what we might think it means.
(It may even be the case that 'abomination' is an ancient Nephite word, which unfortunately sounds a lot like the 'abomination' we use in English, with a very different meaning. Paper forthcoming.)
I have a hunch that even 'Christ' doesn't mean what we have thought it meant. But Joseph didn't have a 19th century word for 'space alien playing a funny joke'.
|Subject:||Re: Has some Mormon source admitted that no wheel was in the BOM or Nephite's time in America??|
|Date:||Jun 12 23:42|
|new to this wrote:
> But what says he "forgot the wheel" or didn't use the wheel?
Archaeology says there were no pre-Columbian wheels in the Americas. Who cares what a mormon source says. The Mormons sources say the Nephites and Lamanites settled the Americas and are the ancestors of the American Indians. If Lehi's descendants did use a wheel, there would be evidence of wheels in the Americas. Technology spreads quickly, especially an innovative one like the wheel. Sorry, the fact remains, no wheels in the Americas.
|Subject:||Good point, the wheels are MISSING, rather than "forgotten"|
|Date:||Jun 13 00:44|
|Author:||new to this|
|Thanks for refreshing our memory on book of mormon
Now if FAIR/FARMS try to say that the chariots were not wheeled-based chariots, then we go back to the lovely FAIR/FARMS people and can say "Then why did Lehi not make them with wheels after all they had wheels where he came from!!"
|Subject:||okay, the apologists will say there IS evidence of wheels . . . .|
|Date:||Jun 13 03:25|
|Then they will show a little wheeled toy found in
You can counter with . . . . they had the IDEA, but there were no domesticated animals large enough to pull a cart. Llamas were the biggest. (no horses, elephants, sheep or oxen or WILD oxen). THAT's why they didn't use the wheel.
the following quote is from http://www.fofweb.com
"Among the societies that eschewed the wheel were the Pre-Columbian civilizations of Central and South America. Failure to use the wheel was not due to ignorance of the basic principle; wheeled figurines used as toys or ceremonial objects appeared in Mesoamerica beginning in the 4th-century CE Wheels, however, were not used for transport, a fact that has been explained by the lack of draft animals and the difficulty of building vehicular roads in rugged terrain."
Then they might show you HUGE round and flat stones . . . I think they are 10+ feet tall. However, these are not wheels. They LOOK somewhat like a wheel, but I'd like to see someone use 4 stones like THAT as a set of wheels! How many tons would THAT weigh? What kind of animal would they use to pull something that heavy? (200 Llamas?) What kind of road would support that kind of use? I think I heard that they were some kind of calendar...
|Subject:||Does it make more sense that this info got miscommunicated via the BOM, or that a nineteenth century bumpkin projected contemporary technology into the past?|
|Date:||Jun 13 03:45|
|The lack of evidence for the use of wheels is extremely telling. One can either do mental gymnastics in rationalizing its absence (it was all a misunderstanding, you see), or one can speculate that someone with no knowledge of pre-Columbian cultures, but a vivid imagination, naively inserted these items into his story. Isn't the latter far more probable?|
|Subject:||My Testimony of Why Lehi Forgot about the wheel.|
|Date:||Jun 18 22:47|
|Or alternatively titled: Well at least Lehi didn’t
forget about Fire.
Brothers and Sisters:
I’ve been intrigued by the “wheel issue” in the Book of Mormon. How in the world could Lehi have been so forgetful? Well, I’ve been thinking about it and I think I’ve come up with the answer. It’s really quite simple. He was just plain old. I mean just look at that picture in the Book of Mormon of Lehi and gang crossing the ocean in their boat. Now that’s an old man. He must be at least 80 – 90 years old. And as just about anyone can tell you one thing about old people.. .they forget things. They forget all kinds of things. Now, that doesn’t mean we don’t love them. Of course we love them. They are our parents and grandparents for pete’s sake. And just look at President Reagan, he was old and he forgot all kind of things too, but.. well ...he was beloved. So, anyway, I don’t think we should be so hard on Lehi. He simply forgot about the wheel because he was old.
But that got me thinking. Just look at Nephi in that picture. Of course he’s not old. And he’s definitely not a little kid either. He’s actually a really good looking hunk of an adult. So.. how come he forgot about the wheel? Well, this one’s tougher. But I think I have an answer for this too! I figure that he was probably mentally challenged. Yes, mentally challenged. Now I know that it doesn’t say anything about him being mentally challenged in the Book of Mormon, but if you look closely, you will see some clues. Like..uh.. like.. he wasn’t ever baptized! That’s right, I don’t see anything about Nephi being baptized. And we all know that mentally challenged people don’t need baptism. So there you go, proof positive that Nephi was most likely mentally challenged. Now, since Nephi was mentally challenged, we can’t expect him to remember about the wheel and technological stuff like that. So there you have it.
Now parenthetically, I did think about Laman and Lemuel but they were evil and stuff, so that’s probably why they forgot and the others… well….most of them were women..and …well …we won’t go there. So, I think it’s pretty understandable why Lehi and gang forgot all about the wheel. But… my testimony really grew when I realized a very important point. Although they may have forgotten about the wheel, they definitely DID NOT forget about fire!!
I am absolutely sure they didn’t forget about fire. And that’s pretty cool in and of itself. I mean, can you imagine what it would have been like if Lehi and gang had forgotten how to make fire? If they had forgotten about fire, that would have pretty much put them back in the stone ages or something like that. I mean they were lucky they landed in Central or South America where it’s warm all year long, so they maybe they could have forgotten about fire and got away with it, but the main reason I don’t think they did, is because as we all know, eventually…some of their descendents migrated up North and ended up in upstate New York where they deposited the Golden Plates right there in the Hill Cumorah. And we all know how cold and snowy upstate New York can be!! Can you imagine living there and not knowing about fire? I don’t think so. They for sure knew about fire.
And like I said, that is a real testimony builder for me, because God must have known all along that they needed to remember how to make fire, so that the Golden Plates could be buried in the Hill Cumorah, so we all know who would come and find them…even Joseph Smith Jr!! That would be really stupid if Joseph Smith couldn’t be the one to find the Golden Plates. Had Lehi and gang forgotten about fire, the plates would most likely have ended up in Central or South America and Joseph Smith surely couldn’t be expected to go all the way down there to find them!
The Lord would have to rely on some little Mexican kid or someone like that to find them. Someone with a name like Jose Gonzales, or Pedro Sanchez or something like that and even worse this little kid wouldn’t be white and delightsome and then what the heck kind of a church would we have then? It definitely would be A LOT different and it probably wouldn’t even be headquartered in Zion (Utah) or anything. It definitely would be all messed up.. all because Lehi and gang forgot how to make fire. So.. the lord blessed them so that even though Lehi was old and Nephi was mentally challenged and Laman and Lemuel were evil and wicked and most of the rest of them were women, they remembered how to make fire and the rest is history!!
I just know my talk is true. Inthenameofriceandbeans…. AMEN!!
|Subject:||Re: My Testimony of Why Lehi Forgot about the wheel.|
|Date:||Jun 18 23:32|
|I actually had a boyfriend years ago when I was a
newly divorced TBM, who refused to convert to Mormonism unless I could
answer that simple question: Why did they forget the wheel???
Does FARMS or any other LDS organization have some kind of answer or reply to this?
|Subject:||You're all wrong here! Moroni, the Artifact Angel is responsible...|
|Date:||Jun 19 11:25|
|He removed the golden plates, and everything else
you're wondering about. He's got it all in heaven, in a museum. I
suppose we could name it the Bones, Bows and Wheels Museum, if you like.
But THAT'S what happened to the wheels.
If you have enough faith, you will be able to visit the museum.
|Subject:||FARMS has "axle to grind" with "spin" on BofM wheels|
|Date:||Jun 19 12:10|
|Daniel Peterson burned rubber as he peeled out of
the FARMS parking lot in his BofM Mustang "horse" special
while chastising exmos for their lack of faith.
"Thank God there were no wheels among the Nephites and Lamanites! Just think of all the hubcaps that would have been discarded. And God loved the environment, because all of the grease and oil required to lubricated wheels and axels was avoided." Exuded the flamboyant Peterson.
"A loving God also delayed the development of the decadent television show, 'Wheel of Fortune' by not introducing the wheel into Nephite culture. And remember without wheels we don't have axles which means Axle Rose of Guns n' Roses would never have gotten a gig in Zarahemla." Spewed forth the cocky Peterson adding, "No wheels, no addictions to filthy lucre and rock and roll."
Ironically, apologetics is like the wheel, one eternal round, of the "Merry-Go-Round" type.
|Subject:||So, these folks are now maintaining that Joe Smith|
|Date:||Jun 19 16:04|
|didn't really mean "horse" when he said
"horse". Okay, but if that is the case, then he must not have
meant "God" when he said "God" and all of the other
junk in this stupid book.
The FARMS boys and others can't have it both ways, even though they want to. If the book is to be true, then what Joe Smith and his pals wrote may NOT be open to interpretation by anyone, including GA's and FARMS boys, if truly inspired by the trickster God.
|Subject:||Then what in hell does the word "translate" mean?|
|Date:||Jun 19 16:16|
|Author:||Count Me Out|
|When I translate French into English a horse doesn't
turn into a cow! "Translate" means that a cow stays a cow
regardless of language - and so does a horse!
This is especially true when the most wise and intelligent force in the Universe is in charge of the translation (God).
All you need is a little old-fashioned tapir-sense, er horse-sense.
The Book of Mormon and the lack of Pre-Columbian Wheels related topics
|11. Horses - Book of Mormon||27. A Mormon Letter to FARMS|
|28. Reformed Egyptian||53. Cureloms|
|51. Horses, FARMS and BofM||86. BofM a Missionary Tool?|
|67. Lamanites and DNA||111 Dallin H. Oaks and the BofM|
|330 Captain Kidd, Joseph Smith and Moroni, Camora Island||333 Is FARMS Credible?|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org