|Subject:||Book of Mormon historists still kicking|
|Date:||Jan 06, 2009|
|Author:||Simon in Oz|
|One of the reasons I have been snoozing on the DNA
front is that the Peterson-led apologetic procession has conceded that the
Lehites made almost no contribution to the gene pool of American Indians. I
think they made no contribution. We are almost agreed.
The upside for the apologists of retreating to this position is that they move to familiar turf. They can spin all sorts of new interpretations of Book of Mormon scriptural verses to accommodate the science because they are such serious scholars. They understand the book so much better than the prophets.
The most glaring problem of shrinking the Lehites is accounting for the vast numbers of Native Americans of Asian descent who clearly have lived in the New World for many thousands of years. If there were so many Native Americans there when Lehi arrived, how in the heck did the tiny Lehite group usurp control so quickly and why is the Book of Mormon silent about this remarkable takeover?
An excellent exchange on this very subject is taking place now in the MAD house under the heading “ When Lehi and his family landed in the New World, How did they become rulers?”
The exchange between Brant Gardner and JeffM is pure gold.
|Subject:||Their MAD tortured reasoning, it hurts my brain and makes me feel sorry for them n/t|
|Subject:||Simon, I detect a hint of sarcasm in your remarks. n/t|
|Subject:||Well, obviously ...|
|Date:||Jan 06 23:36|
|The dark, backwards Asians would be immediately awed
by the white and delightsome, culturally superior Israelites. Asian chiefs
and kings would only naturally want to step aside and let the great white
superior types rule them (all 30 of them, whatever) and convert them to
Biblical/Mideastern civilization as is only the proper and fitting order of
After all, isn't that what happened when Europeans came to America?
Racist fantasy? What?
You may detect a small note of sarcasm.
|Subject:||I want to know two things|
|Date:||Jan 06 23:48|
|If Lehi and co. came to a full new world, how did they
turn into millions without ever noticing their neighbors?
Since the Book of Mormon writers never mention any other peoples, and the new theory is that they intermarried to the point of disappearing, does that mean that they intermarried with all these tribes, but never noticed that they were there?
|Subject:||I married into my ex-wife's family, and I have to admit|
|Date:||Jan 06 23:55|
|......sometimes I didn't notice she was there. Nor her
So hey, it's.... POSSIBLE.
|Subject:||I Like This One . . .|
|Date:||Jan 06 23:49|
|And "cinepro" is one of the believers . . .
>Whatever happened, we still have to recognize that Nephi failed to mention it. He talks about the different kinds of goats, and some of the metals, but totally fails to mention all these people . . .
But yeah, given the right frame of mind (and appropriate you-know-whats) this stuff can be a howler . . .
Brant Gardner is not giving up, however (his attempts to fit Mesoamerican stuff to the BOM text is such a tortured attempt I'm thinking a new verb, "gardnerizing" ought to be invented):
>Metalsmithing would be a very obvious technology that is attested in the text (but not yet in archaeology). It is highly doubtful that any of Lehi's sons were potters or masons.
Nope, nothing has been found yet involving metalsmithing in the archaeological record . . . But here, let me help Brant about about that pottery stuff . . .
>Of course, none of Lehi's sons worked with clay or made pots. Every PH holder worth his salt knows that's strictly women's work . . .
(Okay, apologies to the board's Amazons and Valkyries; I'm strictly making a joke with that one. I've genuinely enjoyed doing ceramics stuff myself in the past)
Anyway, if anyone is having trouble following Simon's link, copy-and-paste it into your web browser window. They block direct cyberjumps from Outer Darkness . . .
And a Cabbie note to Simon: My Christmas e-mail to one of your old addies bounced so I sent it to another . . . I trust it arrived; it included a somewhat shameful disclosure that I had discovered a possible diffusionist in my likely ancestry while doing some research (nope, I promise I wasn't doing genealogy).
You Aussies are much more forthcoming about this stuff, I understand; in Oz convict ancestry is a a bit of a mark of nobility in an otherwise class free society . . .
Good to hear from you . . .
|Subject:||(sigh) Still stupid after all these years.....|
|Date:||Jan 06 23:57|
|This first post I read there was written by Glenn
Thigpen. He's one of the Mobots I debated with for years on ARM. I just did
a search on ARM on the keywords "Glenn Thigpen Randy J." and found 197
results---meaning, that many posts between the two of us over the years.
Here are some examples from the first three posts listed:
Kinda sad to see that Glenn is still every bit as stupid and brainwashed as he was all those years ago.
As I read the posts that Simon linked to, I noted the absolute insanity of those Mobots (Brant Gardner included) who are discussing BOM characters, events, and various theories about stuff in the book as though it's all established history, rather than being a hoax that has been discredited from every possible angle. It's hilarious how they theorize about how the BOM people conquered the natives, etc., when there's no evidence whatsoever that the BOM people even existed.
I suppose they're not much different from a crowd of Bigfoot enthusiasts who sit around discussing detailed attributes of the Bigfoot species for hours on end.
|Subject:||More wise words from Glenn Thigpen.....|
|Date:||Jan 07 10:42|
|.....from another post in that thread:
>History is replete with stories of Indian legends that may or may not be connected to Christ. For example, the Inca's welcomed the Spaniards under Cortez with open arms because of legends of a white bearded God who would return to them.
If Glenn had paid attention in high school, he would have known that Cortez landed in Mexico and dealt with the Aztecs, rather than the Incas who were in Peru. But alas, poor Glenn probably listened more intently in seminary class than he did in school.
These TBM zealots blow and blather and act like they are learned men who should be respected and listened to, but slip-ups like this demonstrate that they really don't know what the hell they're talking about.
|Subject:||Simon, I saw you on the DNA YouTube it was great, a big thank you-nt|
|Subject:||The study on Book of Mormon Populations in|
|Date:||Jan 07 00:50|
|New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in
Critical Methodology damns the apologists on both accounts. It at once shows
the Book of Mormon claims that Lehi's group was the only one on the
continent and that the claimed population was much larger than could have
been achieved. There should have been more than enough DNA to detect, if the
Book of Mormon were to be believed . . . which the apologists don't.
However, if they conceded that, they'd have nothing left to do. It would
save a lot of trees, though.
|Subject:||One problem sticks out at first glance.....|
|Date:||Jan 07 01:08|
|I read just this far:
>I do not include the Jaredites because they became extinct (except for Coriantumr) and failed to contribute to Nephite-Lamanite colonizations (Ether 15:12-34).
Even if we assume that to be the case, the Mopologists still have a big problem here, because
a) their theory is that the BOM people intermingled with natives, and
b) the "Jaredite" population was numbered at two million at the time of their supposed extermination circa 600 B.C.
Meaning, even if the Jaredites were killed off, their ancestors still should have been interbreeding with the natives throughout their 1000-or-so-years of existence on the continent; and thus, their Semitic DNA should be detectable among living Amerinds.
Also, the very assertion that the entire civilization of "Jaredites" exterminated each other save one survivor is silly to begin with; if the Jaredites lived there for more than 1000 years, and interbred with natives, they would have migrated all over the western hemisphere. There's no way that ever living Jaredite would have returned from all over the continent to meet their doom, lemming-like, at the battle of "Ramah."
That's just one of many silly, juvenile stories in the BOM which render it unbelievable.
|Subject:||Re: One problem sticks out at first glance.....|
|Date:||Jan 07 09:10|
|Remember also that we have found NO evidence for the
Jaredites, Nephites or Lamanites, except for their supposed descendents (as
claimed by JS) who were all over these 2 continents in 1492.
To put the 2 million Jaredites in perspective, in the 19th C London became the second city in human history to attain a population of over 1 million ppl. Prior to that, the only city to reach that height was Rome during the height of its empire, which coincides with the post-JC era of the BoM. Of course, Rome was sustained by an empire that went from the Scottish border of England to the Sahara Desert over to the Tigris-Euphrates valley and encompassed the entire Mediterranean world. In fact, the Mediterranean Sea derives its name from the Latin for "Center of the World".
Now compare the impact and archeological evidence that Rome left us with that of the JS people. Sorenson estimates that during Alma's day, there were 450,000 Lamanites and 375,000 Nephites, so that would nearly approach 1 million people. You would think that a population that lasted for 1,000 years (about the length of Rome from Early Republic to Fall of Empire) with a population the size of the city of Rome at its height would have left some impact on the people, land and culture of North and South America that would be undeniable. How many scholars question whether Rome existed or not?
|Subject:||I just had to look up the word "historist". n/t|
|Subject:||Thanks, Mootman. LMAO; It Wasn't in My Webster's II . . .|
|Date:||Jan 07 01:21|
|So I had to go a-Googling . . .
>The HISTORISM VIEWPOINT
>Historism can be likened to determinism. It is the belief that the past actions define both the present and the future. Free will has no place in this viewpoint (but the illusion thereof does). Recent investigations in quantum physics have laid to doubt many of the strongest arguments of this viewpoint.
I think our genetics wizard from Oz just gave Peterson and company a huge collective wedgie in their garmies...
|Subject:||And how embarrassing is that, to make a career of defending a book of con-man fantasies?|
|Date:||Jan 07 01:28|
|Rhetorical question. I just always think that whenever I read about Mormon apologists. It's like hey, did I mention I'm one of the world's leading scholars in 19th-century turd sculpture?|
|Subject:||Maybe Lehi and Nephi were members of ant colony?|
|Date:||Jan 07 07:28|
|He could have had an ant farm? In that sense they
would have built a colony in america. That would explain why they're not
finding what they want in human DNA.
I suppose it would be hard for scientists to prove if it was true or false anyway, they could never test ever ant in North and South America...
But think about it...technically it is possible.
|Subject:||Sure, that's possible, but do you realize.....|
|Date:||Jan 07 10:44|
|.....how difficult it would have been for those ant prophets to etch their writings onto those giant golden plates?|
|Subject:||How to apologists explain 2 Ne. 1:8?|
|Date:||Jan 07 08:27|
|"And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be
kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations
would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance." 2
I've never seen this explained.
|Subject:||DNA destroyed the BoM|
|Date:||Jan 07 08:50|
|If I ever had any belief left in Mormonism, the DNA
evidence destroyed it. If even there there was a lingering shard of
integrity left in the LDS Church, the apologists destroyed it by conceding
the DNA and then reconstructing another implausible scenario where the BoM
might possibly be true.
There are two major downsides to their retreat, other than showing they have no intellectual integrity:
1) It refutes the Intro to the BoM as written by Joe Smith himself, stating that the BoM is the record of the PRINCIPLE ancestors of the American Indian.
2) It reduces the BoM to the history of a minor, inconsequential tribe, not the great, massive civilizations that the BoM pretends to narrate.
While this does free them from providing an archeological or sociological evidence for the BoM, it ruins the BoM as a significant record of an important people. It also raises internal problems with the book, like why they never encounter the other natives, how they fought such massive battles on such a grand scale, and how they built huge cities with chariots and armies and great wall, etc.
They might as well go all the way and admit that the BoM is a work of fiction. If ever anyone had a doubt about the BoM being fiction, the apologists have just proven that it is.
|Subject:||Your suggestion has merit|
|Date:||Jan 07 09:13|
|That is what the Community of Christ has done. Much
difficulty has been dismissed by reducing the Book of Mormon to a relatively
minor status. The difficulties are aknowledged, and things that have been
proven to be false are given their proper treatment. This is the stand that
they have taken with several issues.
In a recent discussion with the pastor of the congregation we attend, he reminded me that the focus is not on JS jr. it is on Jesus Christ, it is not on the Book of Mormon, it is on the Bible, and the teachings of Christ and peace in the world.
Does this make them less valiant? In LDS terms, yes. However it makes them less dependant on forcing a dead issue as a test of faith, and allows the faithful to go forward without trying to balance truth and dogmatic issues.
The LDS could more easily justify their existence by following suit.
|Subject:||DNA was a pivotal red flag moment for me.|
|Date:||Jan 07 11:03|
|I remember reading something on the internet that DNA
was in conflict with the BoM. I was a little disturbed by it, so I tried to
find the morg's response to such claims. I was surprised to find an
apologetic response on lds.org itself, as I was expecting it to be relegated
to the professional mopologists. However, their response did little to
relieve my disturbed state. Not only was it unsatisfactory it was rather
lame. This became the catalyst for more investigation which led (you guessed
it) to the nearest exit.
Not much need for faith once the facts are in.
|Subject:||Re: Incredibly shrinking dreams....|
|Date:||Jan 07 09:10|
|Haven't read such entertaining thread for a long time.
Those incredibly grandiose theories when I was baptized reduced to a trivial, insignificant tribe's lame story.
What happened to those Nephites & Lamanites of 1976? Christ's appearance in America, followed by by a great Cataclysm?
|Subject:||Re: BOM historists still kicking|
|Date:||Jan 07 09:33|
|Well, it will certainly come as a surprise to those Native Americans, Polynesians, etc. who joined after being told that the Book of Mormon was about their ancestors.|
|Subject:||It would be great if there was a|
|Date:||Jan 07 11:13|
|point/counter point place regarding BoM DNA. When my
tbm wife reads the apologists counter point against the DNA issue, it helps
her realize the church is not in trouble, everything is fine in the the
Mormon Church and with the Book Of Mormon.
Unless a person looks deeper into what the apologists say about DNA, it makes the issue seem like the church is handling it just fine. Of course, that is the way they want it to appear to the mainstream member.
I hope, or maybe I missed it, some of the DNA scientists will point out how silly the Mormon apologists are with their responses, and with each explanation the apologists give.
|Subject:||Couple of my fav quotes from the Brethren ref an empty hemisphere|
|Date:||Jan 07 11:30|
|Author:||JW the Inquizzinator|
"The Lord took every precaution to see that nothing might interfere with this posterity of Joseph in working out their God-given destiny and the destiny of America. He provided, and so told Lehi at the very beginning of his settlement, that: . . it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations ; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (2 Nephi 1:8.) The Lord so kept the land for a thousand years after Lehi landed. He so kept it in His wisdom for another thousand years after the Nephites were destroyed, perhaps to give the Lamanitish branch another chance."
- Apostle J. Reuben Clark, "Prophecies, Penalties, and Blessings," Improvement Era, 1940, v. xliii., July 1940. no. 7
"We, therefore cast a glance southward into old Mexico and through the great countries beyond -- down through Central America and South America, where there are millions and millions of Lamanites, direct descendants of Father Lehi."
- Elder Andrew Jenson, Church Historian's Officer, Conference Report, October 1921, p.120
"About twenty-five centuries ago, a hardy group left the comforts of a great city, crossed a desert, braved an ocean, and came to the shores of this, their promised land. There were two large families, those of Lehi and Ishmael, who in not many centuries numbered hundreds of millions of people on these two American continents."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 601
|Subject:||The brethren have spoken, the debate is over. Ex those heretic apologists! n/t|
|Date:||Jan 07 14:30|
|Isn't this like discussing if the Klingons and Vulcans might have been related? They are both imagined universes but even so I prefer Star Trek's worldview|
|Subject:||It Is Vulcans and Romulans Who Are Related . . .|
|Date:||Jan 07 15:45|
|Oh unwashed one . . . But then there was that episode
in "New Generation" where all of the humanoid species were related and a
special message from their ancestors was encoded in their DNA . . .
And a Cabbie moment of silence for Majel Barrett Roddenberry, the widow of series orginator Gene Roddenberry. Maj did the computer voice on the original series and later portrayed Counselor Troy's ditzy mother . . .
She passed away Dec. 19, 2008
|Subject:||Many natives in the Americas when Lehi & family showed up also conflicts with JS' Wentworth Letter.|
|Date:||Jan 07 14:57|
|The new LDS 'truth' (i.e., the latest version of the
new LDS 'truth') still doesn't jive with what the 'Prophet of the
Restoration' wrote about American Indians in his 1842 letter to John
Wentworth. Joseph Smith, 'translator' of the BoM (by using a magical rock in
his hat, as described in Mormon Apostle Russell Nelson's article, "A
Treasured Testament" in the July 1993 Ensign), wrote the following in his
letter to the editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat newspaper:
"In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country." (ref. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wentworth_Letter)
The LDS Church re-published the Wentworth Letter in the July 2002 issue of the Ensign (under the section, "Gospel Classics"), its official publication.
In every respect, the Book of Mormon has been proven to be a work of fiction.
111 Dallin H. Oaks and the BofM (see also 537 in this listing)
438 Reflections on RfM by Daniel Peterson and Comments by Bob McCue
|537. Dallin Oaks on the Book of Mormon - A Mormon Apostle||538. What was the Urim and Thummim?|
|534. Book of Mormon Apologetics recommended reading||544. Vern Holly Maps Shows BofM Names are of Recent Origin|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org