Subject: Church spent $594 million in the last 2 years to cover Beneficial Life
Date: Jun 17, 2009
Author: Cosmic

Wow! That just came across the Dow Jones Newswire and is reported in the online version of the Wall Street Journal.

Nice to see rank and file members struggling to survive at the same time a $3 billion dollar mall (exact total is being kept secret, but it is beyond 2 billion dollars as of June 2009) is being built and they're bailing out the church owned life insurance company. Nice...

Subject: Tithing... probably no. Deseret Management... yes
Date: Jun 17 17:37
Author: LV Skeptic

Contrary to most of the comments, Beneficial is owned by Deseret Management, the for-profit arm of the Morg. No tithing funds are co-mingled with Deseret Management, or vice do so would jeopardized the Church's tax exempt status.

The loss incurred by Beneficial was covered by Deseret Management, and the profitable companies owned by that holding company.

As for the $2 billion White Elephant, I have not seen anything official, but I would imagine that the $2 billion is financed with construction loans secured by the property, and probably financed by Morg owned banks and other Deseret Management companies.... or even non-Morg banks like Bank of America.

Who knows, maybe Beneficial even has loaned money to the White Elephant project.

The initial statement that the "Church spent $594 million" to cover Beneficial is just not the way it is done.

Subject: No shhhhhh-- Kidding!! Some decent people have lost their *homes*
Date: Jun 17 17:08
Author: Tiphanie

Not talking about the idiots who bought way more than they could afford, but the decent ones who had good jobs, purchased their homes, cars and etc wisely, kept paying and paying to the money-grubbing CULT only to lose their homes!!

While these people were and are struggling, the damm mo CULT is showing extreme fiscal IRRESPONSIBILITY with ''gawd's money''!!

Wanna know what this tells me? There is NO God or she would have zapped MUCH MORE than just one damm mormon statue!! >:(


Subject: I had a four year run around with them. HORRIBLE service.
Date: Jun 17 17:15
Author: Anon for this one, TMPI

And I am sure I was not the only one. They assign you a customer service person and it is impossible to talk to anyone else, even a supervisor. They outsourced to India and my rep did not have a basic understanding of English. It took many hours to resolve and my son almost lost a $30K pay out on a US Goverment policy that had been left to him.


Subject: Half a billion down the tube! This can't be true! The Prophet would have foreseen it long ago!


Subject: The profit, liar, and prevaricator spoke on the topic of prophecy frequently.
Date: Jun 18 10:43
Author: ...

Actual quotes from Gordon B. Hinckley (deceased Mormon prophet):

"None of us knows what lies ahead. We may speculate, but we do not know."

"I do not know what the future holds."

"I don't know His will. I don't know how He operates."

"I don't know what he meant by that."

"I don't have the remotest idea what you mean."

"...we are given little understanding."

"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it."


Subject: Is it even possible....
Date: Jun 17 17:27
Author: bender

for Deseret Management to spend that much money, without dipping into tithing funds? $2+ billion for the mall, nearly $600 million to keep Beneficial afloat. They keep spending money like crazy and all we hear from their public statements is "No tithing funds were used..." "No tithing funds were used..." Deseret Management is a large company but I don't think they're large enough to have that much money liquid to be able to spend.


Subject: Fast Offerings of course!
Date: Jun 17 17:34
Author: laughing

do they say "no fast offerings were used"?


Subject: The morg was broke under Lorenzo Snow.
Date: Jun 17 23:17
Author: Glo

So ALL their assets originate from tithing!


Subject: hmmmmmmmmmm
Date: Jun 18 01:42
Author: Rev Lakes

That's the way it was done but not the way it was done on the books. See, LDS Inc is run by known liars and cheats.

Lesson for today - How to turn 500 millon in tithing to 500 millon for Beneficial.
1. Get a trusted person from Beneficial.
2. Have them go to LDS HQ.
3. Have that trusted person give a lecture about insurance to a LDS Executive who may use the information in a lecture at general conferance AKA LDS Inc stockholder meetings.
4. Pay Beneficial 500 millon for the lecture.


Subject: Can tithing be transmuted to other funds, thereby allowing them to say no tithing was used?


Subject: can someone explain this part to me?
Date: Jun 17 17:33
Author: laughing

"S&P also raised concerns about Beneficial's investments, which include "significant concentrations in residential mortgage-backed securities." "

the above in quotations, is that refering to one of the many reasons for their downfall, or does this refer to more problems to rise to the top later?

i am a musician, not a financial person, sorry! Great post, this is sh*t in the fan now for the morg for sure


Subject: Are ratings about to ''decline''?
Date: Jun 17 17:48
Author: Tiphanie

Whenever S&P starts talking about ''concerns about ... investments'' doesn't that usually mean a business' rating is about to head downward?

Whoa! What would the profit say about that??


Subject: S&P now rates them at "Junk"
Date: Jun 17 17:58
Author: Cosmic

And they "are on watch for further downgrade." This is stinging the brethren hard financialy as well as from a PR stand point.


Subject: How much has the morg spent bailing out all it's OTHER companies???
Date: Jun 17 19:05
Author: Tiphanie

We're probably only hearing about Beneficial because some nonmo news source got wind of it's bad baaaad situation.

How many OTHER entities are also being bailed out that no one's hearing about???

We *know* they're keeping things as hush-hush as possible!


Subject: " I don't know that we spent that".................. nt
Date: Jun 17 19:40
Author: Hinckley


Subject: how's the deseret AM News doing?
Date: Jun 18 09:19
Author: dwindler

I'll never forget a recent talk by Oakes on the importance of reading the newspaper. funny!


Subject: The way to solve this problem is for Desert Management to tie one hand to the bedpost.
Date: Jun 17 19:45
Author: Fallible

That'll stop 'em from playing with OPM.


Subject: Here is the thing, no one knows just WHAT they are doing.
Date: Jun 17 19:51
Author: Susan I/S

They SAY all money is kept separate. But who knows. It has been so many years since there was any real financial disclosure I am not sure that an outside source could even sort it out now.

We do know:
The keep it very secret, even among those with SOME info. A bish/sp may know what his area brings in but no idea of the amount the ward/branch on the other side of the state brings in. Let alone other states.

There is a whole HELL of a lot of money taken in. Some of it in cash.

We know that expenses they have covered in the past are now being picked up by members. Janitorial, gardening, snow removal = BIG BUCKS. As well as smaller amounts for things like snacks and classroom supplies.

There are VERY few paid positions. I can't think of any at the local level.

We know that what they spend on "Humanitarian Aid" is damn slim and most of it is volunteer based.

We know that there are big perks for some, like the hunting reserve.

We know there are HUGE physical assets like the farms and cattle ranches.

We know they are good about sliding assets around.

We know they will pony up huge undisclosed amounts in law suits so they do NOT have to disclose what they have.

And did I mention we are talking about a HELL of a lot of money?


Subject: The lord also bails out big-tithers who get in financial trouble.
Date: Jun 18 10:47
Author: Farnham

"The deal has left local real-estate professionals shaking their heads. They say the land isn't worth anything close to what the church paid."

"Now the orphaned land of Avalea belongs to the church, and some local analysts say Shea and Fulton got off lucky."

"It's a phenomenal deal for the home builders, because very few buyers, I think, would be willing to pay that kind of money,"

Matt Baldwin, spokesman for Salt Lake City-based Property Reserve, did not return phone calls left last week, and neither did church officials.


"Fulton Homes founder Ira Fulton is a high-profile Mormon and philanthropist who has donated more than $250 million combined to Arizona State University, the church-owned Brigham Young University and the University of Utah."



Subject: We still have a $100,000 life policy with Beneficial. How will it be affected? NT


Subject: You are okay.
Date: Jun 17 20:38
Author: sm

Life insurance companies are required by law to have reserves so they can pay claims. And LDS Inc. has deep pockets to back up the claims of Beneficial Life. Don't worry.


Subject: Link to Wall Street Journal article ...
Date: Jun 17 20:22
Author: 3X


Subject: Try google for free access ..
Date: Jun 17 20:24
Author: 3X

google "Beneficial Life"

and the 4th hit (or so) is a link to the full article, no subscription needed ..


Subject: Non-WSJ article {link} "The outlook for both ratings is negative."
Date: Jun 18 00:55
Author: Tiphanie

Looks like they're downgraded by AM Best to A- from A. Which doesn't sound so bad, but add in "The outlook for both ratings is negative." and things don't look good at all.


Subject: per WSJ, the rating is BB+, one notch inside junk territory


Subject: link
Date: Jun 18 01:06
Author: PtLoma


Subject: Well, now we know why members have to be janitors
Date: Jun 17 23:25
Author: Glo

and no money is available for fun activities or nice dinners.

The morg is trying to keep their investments afloat while squeezing 10% gross out of the wards.


Subject: Re: Church spent $594 million in the last 2 years to cover Beneficial Life
Date: Jun 18 03:16
Author: me

See how the church plays with money..bought by a Chinese businessman? Bought back by the church? Huh? It's all a money shuffle.


Subject: Re: Church spent $594 million in the last 2 years to cover Beneficial Life
Date: Jun 18 03:28
Author: Don Bagley

I know it's 20-20 hindsight, but wouldn't it have been good for Beneficial Life to have had a prophet to forsee trouble?


Subject: It's possible that this occurred during the transition phase
Date: Jun 18 10:51
Author: Ron

of the profit. Sometimes things of this nature fall through the cracks. Of course, it is a test of faith for the saints. I'm sure in the end the Lords hand will be revealed.


Subject: How many toilets could the church have professionally cleaned instead of using local members?
Date: Jun 18 10:09
Author: Sick of It

...with HALF-A=BILLION DOLLARS! And how many missionaries could have been sent out without parents taking out loans?

The church has squeezed out every cent they could from the members, but there is always money enough for gigantic malls and giantic market losses!


Date: Jun 18 10:19
Author: IMO

Members always answer to the church in the most intimate of matters -- including their financial state.

But the church never settles its tithing USE to the members!

Subject: Beneficial Life
Date: Jun 17 18:55
Author: Emma'sFlamingSword
Mail Address:  

the church is closing up shop and over 200 employees will lose their jobs. My friend is a bishop who has worked for this church owned company for years. He has a brood of children and will be let go in a couple of weeks. Paying his tithing and wearing garments didn't protect him.


Subject: I'm shocked
Date: Jun 18 00:30
Author: Glo

SHOCKED I tell you that the profit did not foresee Beneficial's demise.


Subject: Say it Isn't SO! More losses at the MORG with Beneficial Life being Closed (link)
Date: Jun 16 14:33
Author: The Mighty Builder


Subject: But...but... shouldn't a 'spired profit foresee this and *prevent* stuff like this from happening???
Date: Jun 16 15:01
Author: Tiphanie

Where's the inspiration that should have had the morg-run insurance company proactively preparing for this recession... instead of falling victim to the recession like so many other businesses out there?

In fact, I've seen a number of businesses *not* hurt by this recession. They're not run by mormons or fanaticism of any kind... is that the reason these businesses are doing fine?


Subject: more details (and link)
Date: Jun 16 15:02
Author: ramanujam

"...Beneficial has seen its investment portfolio decline significantly due to its exposure to mortgage-backed and other structured securities, resulting in losses of $600 million over the past two years. Deseret Management had to infuse $594 million into Beneficial to make up the deficit, but at no time did it use funds provided by LDS tithes, Willes noted."


Subject: How do we know whether or not tithing money was transferred to another category and then used? n/t


Subject: Re: Say it Isn't SO! More losses at the MORG with Bennificial Life being Closed (link)
Date: Jun 16 15:46
Author: Goofy

The church is in the life insurance business?????

Is this tax exempt????


Subject: Some speculation and a question
Date: Jun 16 16:49
Author: bender

I find it strange that they are going to let the company die a slow death rather than try to sell it. It seems like they'll lose alot more money that way. I wonder if they are doing this for tax reasons.

Now I don't know much about tax laws but I do remember something that happened in my hometown. In the small city I grew up in S. California. There was a shopping center that had many businesses. A new owner bought the place and nearly tripled the rent. Of coarse all the stores left and the shopping center became a graffiti covered eyesore in our town. We wondered why the owner would do that. Numerous letters to the editor in our newspaper explained. The shopping center was purchased by a large real estate holding company in Los Angeles. They would buy commercial property in outlying towns, raise the rent to drive out the tenants then operate the properties at a loss. By filing these losses on their taxes they were able to make huge tax writeoffs that more than made up for their losses.

Like I said I don't know much about tax laws, but could Deseret Management be doing something similar. Hold on to Beneficial Life and operate it at a loss, for the next few decades, until the last policy expires, for the tax write offs? Maybe they figured they'd get more money that way rather than sell it now to a larger insurance company. Any tax experts out there who thinks this could be a possibility or if I'm way off base?


Subject: Re: Some speculation and a question
Date: Jun 16 21:54
Author: 3X

A major unknown factor: what kinds of investments is the company's capital tied up in?

Maybe those investments are currently undervalued, making a slow liquidation more profitable.

Maybe they are mortgage-backed securities - which no one wants: hence selling the company is difficult.



Subject: Anyone remember the conf where they told everyone
Date: Jun 16 17:13
Author: Mormon Observer

to get life insurance??? This was about 12-15 years ago. Nearly every GA got up and told people to get their life in order and buy life insurance!!

So what happens to all the loyal mormons who bought policies from Beneficial??? Will they lose their policies too????

Beneficial Finance was heavily advertised in our small town on the radio in the 60s and 70s. I later had a TBM convert friend who worked there. He said it was amazing to him how many 'good members' of the church would come in to get loans to tide them over. He always kept a copy of the Ensign handy and read to them the prophets words about avoiding debt. Then he'd sign their loan papers. I guess it kept his conscience clear!


Subject: Just so ya know.....
Date: Jun 16 19:16
Author: Randy J.

>So what happens to all the loyal mormons who bought policies from Beneficial??? Will they lose their policies too????

As the article states:

>Executives are, however, making a commitment to service existing policies until the last beneficiary is gone. "They'll be safe. They'll be secure. And we will pay all claims as we go forward

It's a fairly common occurrence for life insurance companies to cease business or to be bought out by another company. If they go out of business, the payout of policies is usually turned over to another entity. If the company is bought out, the new company is responsible for paying out the old policies.


Subject: Ummmm
Date: Jun 16 22:42
Author: Guy Noir, Private Eye

I know you didn't say 'Directly', but:

I don't think the heavily advertised comp ur referring to (B.Finance, a 'small scale' convenience lender) was related to tscc / Beneficial Life...


Subject: Re: Say it Isn't SO! More losses at the MORG with Bennificial Life being Closed (link)
Date: Jun 16 17:29
Author: Don Bagley

At some point in the near future, Beneficial will probably go into bankruptcy with some kind of debt restructuring. I don't know about the status of the policies, but all the company jobs will vanish. It really is bad news.

Those jobs will be replaced with low paying retail positions like WalMart's. I no longer recognize the economy of my own country. It's like income is being peeled away from work!


Subject: Where else can they get all the $$$ to pay their top DOGS the MILLIONS??
Date: Jun 16 17:58
Author: Tiphanie

From you and me and everyone else.

Seriously, I think of the Israelites being told that not only do they have to work their butts off, but now they have to gather their own straw as well.

Stupid STUPID business ''leaders'' in America today are doing *anything* to pad their own pockets, no matter how many hearts they break. No matter how many LIVES they destroy.


Subject: Yes, Morg for-profit businesses are taxed, and the insurance policies are in no danger
Date: Jun 16 18:18
Author: Winter

Insurance companies go out of business all the time, especially small ones. All states, as far as I know, have a state insurance commissioner, and a law in place to create a fund to make good on life insurance policies of bankrupt insurers.

I had a small whole life policy where the original company went bankrupt, and another insurer bought the policies, and it went bankrupt, so now a third insurer is managing them.

I am surprised that Beneficial doesn't just close up shop, and their not doing so may well have something to do with generating tax losses to make up for gains in other businesses. Given the size and scope of the current recession, it is hard to believe they would have lots of taxable income that needs protecting.

I believe Mark Willes, head of Deseret Management, the parent company, was the same guy who decimated the news division at the LA Times a few years back.


Subject: correct
Date: Jun 16 21:34
Author: PtLoma

Willes was publisher of the LA Times several years back.


Subject: I have a close friend who works there
Date: Jun 16 21:46
Author: Emma'sFlamingSword

He is a great guy but everything in his life revolves around the church. He can hardly have a conversation with out mentioning how wonderful the church is and how god has blessed him. EVERYTHING testifies to him of the truthfulness of TSCC [this so called church], his cat, his house, his wife and of course his job. I am sure that god or the church won't take the hit for him losing his job. The really really sad part is that he passed up a great job because he wanted to work for god's only true corporation.


Subject: Loved this on the "comment" board: "Getting out of the life insurance business ...
Date: Jun 16 23:01
Author: Can't Say This Time

...but staying IN the life interference business!" LOL!


Subject: Re: Say it Isn't SO! More losses at the MORG with Beneficial Life being Closed (link)
Date: Jun 17 00:21
Author: Crathes
Mail Address:  

I found it interesting that they can pull 1/2 billion out of DMC to fill the gap. Do they have that kind of cash? I know Gordie B stated that the mall would be cash and cash flow from other operations. What happens if the cash flow from other operations gets sucked up in a bad economy and bailing out this sort of thing? Do they go to the debt market? Float a bond issue? Tap tithing funds?


Subject: They can't float a bond without assets being made public
Date: Jun 18 20:38
Author: Just me

It'll never happen. This does present an interesting situation though. How deep are those pockets? I gotta think they are running into a liquidity problem. Even with the those kind of assets, it gets problematic to come up with it in cash. You can't just liquidate a half billion in depressed Zions preferred stock without crushing the value of those shares on the open market. Very interesting..... Liquidity crunch!


Subject: Re: Say it Isn't SO! More losses at the MORG with Beneficial Life being Closed
Date: Jun 18 22:20
Author: Flecher

They're gone?
Too bad.
They had a very reasonable eternal life policy that I've been considering for a dozen years or so. My wife and I were looking at the "Separate but Equal Kingdoms Guarantee" policy.
She likes hot planets!


Subject: Re: Say it Isn't SO! More losses at the MORG with Beneficial Life being Closed (link)
Date: Jun 19 02:27
Author: Yse

So they've been quietly keeping their insurance business afloat for the last two years but they can't do it anymore.

Looks like their little empire is starting to crumble.


Subject: If General Motors can go bankrupt, the church easily can go bankrupt.
Date: Jun 19 05:51
Author: Rubicon

The US economy is being decimated by greed, stupidity, and mismanagement. These traits are alive and well at Mormon Inc. as well. I can remember when GM was number one on The Fortune 500. Times have changed.

I think the church got caught in the bubble economy hype along with everyone else.

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