Subject: Tithing:  Blind obedience or mindless irresponsibility?
Date: Jul 02, 2009
Author: Simon in Oz

Admin note:  The Mormon Church is extorting money, in ever increasing efforts, from its followers to pay for ill fated business ventures.    They claim tithing is not used for the mall, but they do not open the books for inspection.    Where did the original money come from to start these businesses?

Background 1:  The Mormon Church to bail out Beneficial Life for nearly $600 million.  Mormon581   

Background 2:  Mormon Church is spending more than $2.0 billion on a shopping mall in downtown Salt Lake City.  They are building this monstrous mall in the worst recession since the great depression.   Malls are closing all over the United States.   Hard working and struggling Mormons are now being pressured even more to pay tithing to finance the church.  Mormon403  

This July 2009 Ensign article demonstrates the pressure the Mormon Church is placing on its members by using a single mother of 6 as an example of being faithful.

In the July 2009 Ensign [official Mormon Church magazine] a single mother of 6 kicks in for the church's coffers before feeding her family.

"...I would rather lose the water source to my house than lose the living water offered by the Savior. I would rather have no food on our table than be without the Bread of Life. I would prefer to endure the darkness and discomfort of no electricity than to forfeit the Light of Christ in my life. I would rather abide with my children in a tent than relinquish my privilege of entering the house of the Lord."

Mormon Church Ensign Magazine Link
"Could Tithing Ease My Worries?
While my older children were at school and the little ones napped, I spread the household bills across the kitchen table. I began this dreaded monthly task by praying for wisdom and ability to stretch our meager income. The tithing check, as always, would be the first one written.

When I joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a young wife and mother, I had committed to pay tithing. I had never wavered from that promise. I was deeply distressed, however, by inadequate funds to cover yet another month of utility, mortgage, and insurance bills.

Now I was a single mother of six young children. I frequently felt overwhelmed by the constant workload, financial worries, and endless decisions involved in my efforts to be both mother and father with no extended family to give me relief or support.

As I sat at the table pleading with the Lord for His help and mercy, the Holy Ghost opened to my view a beautiful and comforting manifestation of the Savior’s love. I was able to see the money owed for household expenses with a new perspective as the sacred priorities of life were brought to my remembrance. I knew that our Heavenly Father wanted me to have the blessings promised to those who faithfully paid tithes and offerings. I also knew that tithe paying should be a joyful act of love, devoid of fear and worry.

As the Spirit of the Lord filled me, I found myself bearing testimony of convictions I had long held firm and sacred. My voice broke the silence of the kitchen as I declared that I would rather lose the water source to my house than lose the living water offered by the Savior. I would rather have no food on our table than be without the Bread of Life. I would prefer to endure the darkness and discomfort of no electricity than to forfeit the Light of Christ in my life. I would rather abide with my children in a tent than relinquish my privilege of entering the house of the Lord.

The burden of worry immediately lifted. My love for the Lord overcame the weakness generated by my fears. Our Heavenly Father is our deliverer, our benefactor, and our protector. He truly does supply all our needs. His promises are sure and unfailing. He commands us to pay tithing on our increase so that He may shower down blessings from heaven—including peace of mind, freedom from worldly and material worry, and confidence in His holy name.

From that day forward I have counted it a joy to pay my tithing, without reservation or fear, to Him and for Him who first loved me."


Subject: Re: Blind obedience or mindless irresponsibility?
Date: Jul 02 10:18
Author: OldSoul

What other bastard billionaire, besides the Mormon church, would demand payment from a single mother when that payment would put her and 6 kids out on the street? You'd think a church that was dedicated to your welfare and salvation would actually give a damn about you personally enough to tell you to STOP PAYING TITHING, until you were back on your feet.

Instead, they publish manipulative stories designed to use guilt and fear to squeeze every dime they can out of everyone, regardless of and even knowing the consequences of doing so. They even want you to be like the Mom who would make her 6 children homeless, hungry, and thirsty to keep those checks coming.


Subject: Stories like these about tithing are my #1 pet peeve about mormonism.
Date: Jul 02 02:37
Author: can't log in here

Not only is this mother horribly irresponsible, the church is also for printing this rubbish!


Subject: Re: Blind obedience or mindless irresponsibility?
Date: Jul 02 03:16
Author: Don Bagley

These are the mental rantings of an incompetent mother. I don't like that we have to have a Child Protective Services agency. Kids should be with their mothers, most of the time. But not in this case. The woman proclaims that she would rather have the water shut off than fail to pay money to a church. She would choose that her kids have no electricity or running water, rather than deprive an organization from income. She would even rather have no food for her children than deny the church its tithing payments.

Her children should be removed from the house and put in a favorable situation. Somewhere they could eat and drink.


Subject: Re: Blind obedience or mindless irresponsibility?
Date: Jul 02 09:11
Author: MichaelM

A recent case in Utah concerned adoption of two Navajo children, while the biological grandmother on the res was denied having them. She did not have running water. The whole case violates the federal native american child welfare act, but the State of Utah seemed to decide that it's authority to determine who can be a parent extended onto the reservation.

Now bullsh*t like this? I guess if you pay your damn tithing, they will let you get away with murder.


Subject: That made my day...
Date: Jul 02 03:30
Author: Squid

Yes, truly sickening. And to think that they view this as heartwarming and inspirational.

I think the only way the church leaders could muster half of the moral authority to justifiably demand this kind of shakedown would be if they lived in poverty themselves. I would like to see how long the top 15 last without electricity and running water. And how do they sleep at night knowing that they are fleecing the poor to build their 2 billion dollar mall? That's right, they all sold out and lost their way a long time ago.

Really glad to have left the Cult.


Subject: I remember my lesson on tithing
Date: Jul 02 08:59
Author: JBryan

I was struggling with trying to stay in to please my wife and having the desire to get away from the church in late 1997.

At the time we had just had a baby and I was under pressure to bless her in church. But the branch president said I couldn't guessed it...I wasn't paying a full tithing.

I went ahead and blessed the baby at home.

For the next few years when I had to be interviewed by him it ALWAYS came back to tithing.

Tithing propaganda stories like these are put out to shame people into coughing up money that, in these economic times, many people can't afford to part with.

At the end of the day all religious crooks are the same. Listen to this and thing about what you have read in the Ensign:


Subject: I wonder how child welfare services will view her devotion? n/t


Subject: This is a really sick story. Shame on the morg for printing this.
Date: Jul 02 09:35
Author: Tauna

I took a child development class in HS. The teacher asked who would steal a bottle of medicine if it was the only thing that would save a family member's life and you had no other way to get it. Most of the students said that no they would not steal it. She said, "BS, when a family member has a basic life need, you will do what you have to to take care of that need".

Shame again on the cult for printing this.


Subject: How shameless!!! They are so awful!!!
Date: Jul 02 09:42
Author: SHAME!!!!!

Here we are in a time when families are struggling to make ends meet, and the church chooses to run a flagrantly opportunistic article reminding families of the lowest depths they should be willing to go to make sure that the church gets its portion of their money.

Oh, yeah. Sky Daddy will bail you and your kids out!!! Not the church with its hoarded wealth!!

So, so sad.


Subject: I posted it in the Atheism section of Reddit--ha!!
Date: Jul 02 09:50
Author: LYDIA1013

Love reddit!!!


Subject: On the plus side, this is such manipulative, self-serving BS for LDS Inc...
Date: Jul 02 09:59
Author: Winter

that there are going to be some TBMs who would (rightly) put food and water for their children ahead of religious extortion, for whom this is a big enough splash of cold water in the face that they will wake up to what TSCC is.

LDS Inc is bringing out the big guns, and aiming them right at their own feet. D'oh!


Subject: The burden of worry immediately lifted. (so that's Gods solution?)
Date: Jul 02 10:00
Author: They don't want me back

I wonder how this philosophy affects the people who provide services and don't get paid.

I guess God robs Peter to pay Paul too.

It's all such bull crap!


Subject: Mormonism is just another variation of the "Gospel of Greed".
Date: Jul 02 10:02
Author: Gut Full

Surf through all the religious TV channels and you will hear this same basic message over and over again:

"If you want God's Blessings; If you want His special favors and His ‘anointings’; If you want your deepests frustrations to disappear, you must first give God your money!"

Unfortunately God is away in heaven somewhere, so you must send your money to His servants whom he has personally selected here on earth.

The only difference in this scam is the faces, the theatrical mannerisms, the stage decorations and the chosen media. They are all the same breed of parasites however, from Mike Murdock’s Ministries to Mormonism.

The usual analogy is that you can’t reap a harvest until you’ve planted a seed, but that one seed yields thousands when it’s planted in faith, i.e. “The windows of Heaven syndrom”, the “Seed-faith syndrom” etc.

Recently on BYU-TV an Apostle’s wife gave a talk in which she said, with tears in her eyes, that the last thing her own mother did, virtually on her death bed, was to make out her tithing check to be sure she (the mother) was square with the Lord. Her mother wouldn’t even let anyone else write the check, she insisted that it be in her own hand!

Emotionally, this mentality is not far removed from the Gambler’s Syndrom. It’s the magical thinking that “my time has come”, that I’ve paid-in (sacrificed) for so very long, that there is some grand power (God, Lady Luck, whatever) that has a special mystical regard for Me and My (neurotically-driven) devotion all these years. But the minute I stop putting-in, I will loose everything that I’ve worked for thus far.

This scam is a highly profitable (Prophitable) venture wherever you find it, but it isn’t always obvious because it has so many ingenious disguises from Vegas to the Vatican, and from TBN to Temple Square!

But they are all Institutional Leeches.


Subject: On the other side of the Tithing Counter Window is this....
Date: Jul 02 10:19
Author: Blind Side

A TWO BILLION DOLLAR MALL...and...HALF-A-BILLION DOLLARS lost at the church's "Beneficial Life Insurance Company".

Talk about sacrifice.


Subject: Makes me wanna SCREAM....
Date: Jul 02 10:28
Author: Adult of god

Lady, you have had no INCREASE to pay tithing on if you are that close to the bone!!!!

Simon, it's BOTH blind devotion AND mindless irresponsibility!

And a silly story anyway. After ONE DAY of not being able to flush the toilets with seven people in the house, she'd pay her water bill!

And then feel reeeally guilty!

Plus, that other story about the mom's daughter's fighting. She sounded like an ineffectual bystander in her own daughters' lives. She could have outlawed that kind of behavior years before and worked to build positives between her daughters. But NO. It had to be the SCRIPTURES!

Well, she's a better woman that I. I could never get through them.

Subject: The up-side: The stories in morg magazines are fake.
Date: Jul 02 10:34
Author: Cheryl

I met a writer at a conference who wrote 100 stories for a true life-type magazine. Everyone of them was total fiction. Then she would revise them slightly to turn them in to church magazines, including Ensign and Friend. This is how she made a living between publishing her fiction as fiction.

Faith promoting stories are as fake as the one most faked church wide testimony each Fast Sunday.

We don't believe the twisted and false history articles in the Ensign, the ones about Joe Smith having only one wife. So we can see through the faith promoting tales.

Let's hope there is no mother out in mo-ville who would deprive her children of food, water, and electricity in order to dish out cash to the morg.


Subject: Good Gawd!! Will those disgusting mo-scammers stop at *nothing* to fill their pockets???
Date: Jul 02 10:35
Author: Tiphanie

If anyone ever knows of a mindless drone paying the mormon CULT instead of feeding their kids, please call child protection on them asap! They need consequences if they are to ever learn!

You're right, Simon - is this disturbing behavior blind obedience or mindless irresponsibility? Is there a real difference between the two?

Ultimately the outcome is the same - mormons have to BUY their way into mo-heaven no matter the cost, no matter how much any little child suffers. >:(

The only positive is the more fanatic the parents, the better chance the kids have to see how *crazy* mormonism is and walk away from it the first chance they get.

Subject: The mentality the story illustrates is very real, that's the scary's a real example....
Date: Jul 02 13:53
Author: Jonny the Smoke

I posted recently about my Nephew serving a state side mission. He has severe health problems and if he isn't careful, he risk's damaging himself for life. Doctors say he should go home, but guess what, the church has encouraged him to stay and he wants to.

He was feeling depressed about not being able to work as hard as he wants because of his health. He and another sickly missionary are basically on light duty and don't get out much. He spoke with one of the AP's who quoted a D&C reference that say's we should use up and waste our bodies in the service of the lord. Well that clicked on his "dim light bulb of mormonsim" which caused an epiphany, so his position now is that he doesn't care if he damages his body and health long as its from doing too much for the lord....he doesn't care if he long as its from doing too much for the lord.

My Nephews story is perfect for the next Ensign issue and it illustrates the current Ensign story in the original post quite well....only his story is very real, which tells me that the programming the Ensign article is attempting to do is working very well on the members.....some of whom should be wearing helmets or have their kids taken away as a result.


Subject: Sickening! Anyone who doubts that LDS Inc. is a deliberate scam, stick this on your refrigerator
Date: Jul 02 14:07
Author: munchybotaz

and keep reading it until you realize that no organization with anyone's best interests at heart would have allowed it in their magazine.


Subject: So she's OK with her children being hungry and homeless.....n/t

Subject: Just for the record....
Date: Jul 02 14:33
Author: Tahoe Girl

I was TBM and believed in tithing BUT when I was really tight financially a few years ago I stopped paying tithing. My children ALWAYS came first. They were never hungry or homeless, and they got to do fun stuff (one went to Space Camp, one went to England) with the money I would have used to pay tithing.

Hmmmm.....guess I wasn't as TBM as I thought I was. I put my CHILDREN before the morg.

*Patting myself on the back*



Subject: Stuff like this is why so many leave the morg
Date: Jul 02 14:41
Author: 6 iron

First of all, show me the revelation on tithing, exactly what specifically is required and specifically what it is to be used for and specifically how expenditures should be disclosed. Until I see that, then some old guy made it up and some old guys keep enforcing it. In today's day and age, especially when we are taxed and the government provides so many services, it is hard to believe that 10% of your gross is what is required. What the heck is increase? Personally I think that if you paid your mortgage/rent, food, clothes, utilities, taxes and you have anything left then maybe 10% of that would be reasonable, but then if you had 10 kids as opposed to no kids then that would be a big difference. Funds for post secondary, and weddings. And to top it off, the culture or preaching to be a single income, is absurd. Then get married young, even if still in school, have kids right away, and lots, for many mormons (myself included) has been a recipe for disaster. And then pay for your kids mission, is a big requirement, as well as other offerings.

It's as if the church is completely out of touch with the reality of life, but then history has shown that whenever you have a group of people that have everything taken care of for them, and they control others, they have no clue to reality of others they control. Let's face it, old people have no idea of the realities of sex, missions, marriage and dating, tithing, raising kids, etc. They have forgotten and no longer live that anymore. In fact the church is offering a program that many people really don't need. It is a do this for an afterlife, program. But what about now?

They really offer nothing as far as how to have a successful relationship, how to be better parents, how to have a balanced life ensuring recreation and relaxation is part of it, how to save money, what really matters in selecting a spouse. In fact I would say that not only don't they do these things, but the things they make you do, make you life worse than if you just did things yourself. Many on this site feel that they have missed out on so many things, had their self esteem damaged, and made serious mistakes listening to and following 15 old guys whose motives are just all about getting you to service the church with your time and money. All that matters to them is the church and its money, and really doesn't care about you as person, but has no problem making extreme demands and crossing boundaries. And if you don't do as they want, you are looked down on, shamed, guilted, aren't part of the in crowd, shunned, now worthy to be dumped or divorced, not allowed to see you kids get married, not allowed to perform duties in the church for your family. Let's face it, they treat you like a stupid little child, and they only tell you the filtered good stuff.

Personally I think that if you followed that Ensign article, you would risk having your kids removed. Follow the prophet. Ya right.


Subject: Starve your kids?
Date: Jul 02 14:41
Author: No Mo

Fanatical rhetoric. This woman would rather starve her kids and live in a tent than not give the rent money to a multibillion dollar religious corporation that continues to erect underused buildings and lose money in Cult investments?

"I would rather lose the water source to my house than lose the living water offered by the Savior. I would rather have no food on our table than be without the Bread of Life. I would prefer to endure the darkness and discomfort of no electricity than to forfeit the Light of Christ in my life. I would rather abide with my children in a tent than relinquish my privilege of entering the house of the Lord." Gawd!

Stupid Cult.


Subject: When the church publishes this without correction, that's their endorsement of the insanity. (nt)

Subject: I think it's legit. Those are the words of someone whose been broken.
Date: Jul 02 14:45
Author: DataHavok

The entire message, tone, surrender, those are the words of someone who has continually, completely sacrificed and obeyed 100% and is seeing 0% of the blessings, but does not have the necessary support structure to abandon the failed beliefs.

I know, because it mirrors my own expressions toward the end of my 2-year LDS mission. I had given everything, gotten nothing, and was being whittled down to a near-dead shell in a backwater hell-hole without anyone to lean on, any way to get out. The only, only reason I survived was because it was over after 2 years.

After enough scratching at the impervious walls, you eventually give up, give in, give out. To numb the pain of your growing sense of doom, you rest upon your legacy of sacrifice and prepare to be the martyr the church has set you up to be. You rationalize that this is actually what you wanted, the perfect test, the perfect sacrifice, the most noble choice. While the air grows thinner and you're finally seeing stars, you grow more certain that your sacrifice will yield the most miraculous blessings, once you've made it round the dark side of the moon.

This always ends one of 3 ways.
1. Depression and then Rebellion - Church failed their own sacrifice/obedience --> blessings test. Processing this is disappointing at first, angering later.
2. Lifelong follower - Too much invested now. Can never question the wisdom of that. Can never turn back.
3. Martyrdom complete - Resources got too thin and were never restored. Finally hit bottom of the bottomless pit, and hard. Compounding physical suffering, increasing mental breakdown, eventual suicide or foolish 'accident', etc. as final escape.

It is sad to say, but I believe the Ensign story is legit and the author is somewhere along one of these paths.



Subject: People who think God would even WANT their money
Date: Jul 02 12:37
Author: imaworkinonit

when they are so desperately poor that they can't meet their own needs, apparently don't really believe in a loving and merciful God.

I mean REALLY . . . . what 'father' in heaven would rather see his children go without food or water or power so that they can prove their devotion to him? Especially when there is already enough money to pay for what the church needs?

There is NO NEED for a family to go without food or power to pay that tithing. THAT should be the message the church is publishing, rather than glorifying unnecessary suffering and guilting as many people as they can to follow suit. This article shows what the church is about: obedience at ANY price.

And note that the article said that the lady felt good about her decision. It didn't mention the consequences that followed. (Probably none, because it probably WAS made up, and I honestly hope it was).


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