http://en.fairmormon.org/Kinderhook_Plates

1. Joseph may or may not have said that he translated a portion of the Kinderhook Plates. The quote is taken from William Law's journal so we can't be certain he said it.

2. If he did attempt to translate them, it was a literal or secular translation. Not inspired.

3. Some Kinderhook characters, and their translation, are similar to what is found in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL). The key that may or may not have been used to translate the BoA papyri.

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I find it interesting that FAIR uses the GAEL as a means to explain the Kinderhook translation when they try to distance the same text from the BoA translation.

They also say that the GAEL was the work of the scribes, an attempt to reverse engineer the BoA translation.

I'm just amazed at the logic they use to defend their arguments in one case and then they discount the same logic or evidence in other cases.

Hold Your Tapirs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://en.fairmormon.org/Kinderhook_Plates
>
> 1. Joseph may or may not have said that he
> translated a portion of the Kinderhook Plates.
> The quote is taken from William Law's journal so
> we can't be certain he said it.

I've never understood this apologetic tactic. So, they're saying there is a chance Joe was on the up and up in all cases? Like witnesses only apply if they corroborate what they are defending?

There has got to be a better way to defend something they think is sacred, right? Oh, it is indefensible. It is as if Islam was founded 200 years ago instead of 1400 years ago. It doesn't even hold up to scrutiny. But with only 200 years of myth making behind Mormonism, the scam is as obvious as Scientology.

I've always wondered what JS, Jr. was up to during the time of the Kinderhook plates that he was too busy completing a "translation", which naturally would have been really bad for the church when it was proved they were a contemporary hoax.


Turns out he married 12 of his wives from May through late 1843 and got arrested at least once.

Steve Benson mentions the Kinderhook Plates a couple times in this thread [1]. I seem to remember reading a more extensive quote about the Kinderhook Plates from him and his meeting with Oaks/Maxwell but I can't seem to find it.

[1] http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,116958,116958#msg-116958

"GA Boilerplate on Kinderhook Plates: Duck and Dodge, with No Real Answers," at http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1004346



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 04:10PM by steve benson.

Minor correction Tapirs: You meant William Clayton instead of William Law.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 12:35PM by facsimile3.

What annoys me the most is the attempt to confuse members by citing difference between William Clayton's account (written as Joseph Smith's official scribe) and a letter from Apostle Parley P. Pratt (did I mention apostle?). There was some confusion between the two accounts with regard to the location of the discovery (Pike County vs. Adams County), but the "translated" material is entirely consistent between the two accounts.


Pratt: "They are small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah."

vs.

Clayton: "President J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found, and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 12:35PM by facsimile3.

...Tattoo: "the plates, the plates!!!

. . . himself (meaning that it was an account written by a scribe as if in Smith's first-person), it somehow isn't a legitimate entry.

Using that logic, the years of Claire Middlemiss producing the daily, hour-by-hour office log for David O. McKay--based, as it was, on McKay's thoughts and activitives--invalidates its entire contents.

If these Mormon prophets are actually in charge of their journal accounts, then they know who's inputing the text in their name and behalf, and with their permission.

Otherwise, the operation lacks inspiration. Wait. That's the whole point--meaning FAIR is unwittingly making a case against the very church it claims it's trying to serve and protect.

Heh.

Way to go, FAIR!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 08:00PM by steve benson.

"3. Some Kinderhook characters, and their translation, are similar to what is found in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL). The key that may or may not have been used to translate the BoA papyri."

Journals confirm that the BoA was a direct translation. It wasn't translated using seer stones, etc... Joseph supposedly worked out the alphabet and slowly translated. Now, apologist recognize that it's not a literal translation and that maybe the scrolls just inspired a non-literal revelatory translation. If that's the only explanation, then why the GAEL? I think they just confirmed that both "translations" are cons.

Yep, they pick and choose their logic to suit their agenda. If they had any scholarly merit they would discuss the strengths and weaknesses of each argument (kind of like mormonthink.com), but of course they would never do that.

kimball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yep, they pick and choose their logic to suit
> their agenda. If they had any scholarly merit
> they would discuss the strengths and weaknesses of
> each argument (kind of like mormonthink.com), but
> of course they would never do that.

Yup. The only reason they say you can't trust William Law is becuase he left the church. Yet this same logic doesn't apply to the 3 and the 8 witnesses.

William Law was an apparent "typo" above. The source was actually William Clayton, probably Joseph's closest scribe at the time the Kinderhook Plates were "discovered". It should also be noted that shortly before his death, Joseph Smith publicly credited his scribes for recording his daily activities as proof against false accusers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 02:29PM by facsimile3.

facsimile3 Wrote:
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> It should also be noted
> that shortly before his death, Joseph Smith
> publicly credited his scribes for recording his
> daily activities as proof against false accusers.

Interesting that FAIR would have us believe that the scribes were NOT credible sources for what actually happened, at least in some cases.

As an isolated apologetic, this explanation is probably the best I have seen for the Kinderhook issue. However, I would gladly wrap the GAEL tightly around Joseph's personal neck in exchange for clearing him on the Kinderhook charges--the reality is that the GAEL is some of the most damning evidence of deliberate fraud, which is why most apologists attempt to say that Joseph had little or nothing to do with its creation, or that he abandoned the effort after finding it unsuccessful. Of course, it would also undermine the "translation" = "revelation" apologetic.

. . . the Russians stealing U.S. military secrets in order to configure their own strategic bombers and close-quarter jet fighters, based on American designs.

The result is, more often than not, poor imitations, at best.

But, hey, it's the LDS High Command modeling the Kremlin's approach--and, after all, the Mormon Church is a "modern-day" Politburo.

So, I guess taken that way, it works well enough.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 03:50PM by steve benson.

"If he did attempt to translate them, it was a literal or secular translation. Not inspired.

Of course the big "if" because all non-mos have a terrible record of telling the truth. The only group that lies more than them are mormons, but we still can place doubt for the gullible. Stick with the tried and tested tactics.

So conman jr. decides that he is just going to undertake translating without inspiration? He thought he could do this because the sky zombie had educated him on doing translations according to scholarly methods, by translating what is aritten there without being inspired by a special rock? Conman Jr. felt secure that he would be able to pull the wool over the eyes of another group as gullible as the following he had built and he gambled that scholarly advances on any language currently unknown would not be known during his lifetime. So he went for it, too bad Rigdon and Cowdery weren't around to save him from his conman self for this event.

Now think of all the crap that is in D&C and sky zombie couldn't warn conman jr. that he was experiencing a hoax that was only going to make things more certain than before that he was being exposed?

I think this needs to be called Salamander 1 or salamander prequel.