http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/56785210-79/order-diners-dabc-restaurants.html.csp

Utah, arguably one of the Reddest states in the US, again shows its hypocrisy. This state that is claims to want government off of their backs but will mandate how you are to order food in a restaurant. The theocratic legislature is 80% Mormon while in the general population, they are only 62%.

I have no words for this. And people actually take such " laws" seriously? Living in Holland, I recommend the Dutch solution: just ignore it.

Good grief, if you're old enough to carry gun, surely you're old enough to order a drink if you want to!

rt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no words for this. And people actually take
> such " laws" seriously? Living in Holland, I
> recommend the Dutch solution: just ignore it.
>
> Good grief, if you're old enough to carry gun,
> surely you're old enough to order a drink if you
> want to!

Ignore it and the Mos will take away your liquor license, fine you and you are done.

Liquor and guns are different. They give guns to children. Not kidding. But, you have to be THREE YEARS past being an adult to drink beer. Such misplaced values.

I am in Spain right now. I come over every chance I get. I just get hotel rooms and stay for two weeks. I love European values, particularly the open-mindedness on sex, health care, alcohol and the bent towards atheism or non-belief. There are serious misplaced values in the US.

No Mo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ignore it and the Mos will take away your liquor
> license, fine you and you are done.

I see you are not yet fully versed in the Dutch art of ignoring the law. You don't just ignore the law, you ignore the fines as well. Force the government's hand.

Pretty soon, the government will realize it's too expensive to go after an entire population so they announce that they won't.

That means that officially, whatever needs to be forbidden remains forbidden (usually because international treaties require it) but everybody knows it's not enforced.

If you want freedom, you need to stand up against intrusive governments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 04:57PM by rt.

rt Wrote:

>
> I see you are not yet fully versed in the Dutch
> art of ignoring the law. You don't just ignore the
> law, you ignore the fines as well. Force the
> government's hand.
>
>
> If you want freedom, you need to stand up against
> intrusive governments.

I am sorry. You are right about not being versed in the Dutch art of ignoring the law. I had been focusing more on the Dutch loss of a banking power in the Tulip bubble of 1637, the loss of New Amsterdam to the British, the capitulation to the Nazis in 1940 (although, hey, you did manage to save the monarchy and Kaiser Wilhelm from the Great War). I would love to sample your weed bars when I retire, however. You certainly get kudos for that. ;^)

The phrase civil disobedience was coined by David Henry Thoreau in his 1849 essay "Resistance to Civil Government" and renamed "Essay on Civil Disobedience" so I think that we know something about that in the US. Martin Luther King is regarded as a hero in civil disobedience throughout the world and was an inspiration to Nelson Mandela. Mahatma Gandhi probably deserves some credit before the Dutch, but I didn't intend for this to devolve to nationalistic pride.

All of the bar and restaurant owners in Utard would have to engage in this act of disobedience knowing that they would lose in the US judicial system. Alcohol consumption is not specifically addressed in the US Constitution other than the Eighteenth Amendment and repealed by the Twenty-First.

Cheers to you. I am about to have a Cuba Libre, or as I prefer to call it, a Cuba Sin Fidel. Salud.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 09:39PM by No Mo.

1849 huh. Well, that's like really long ago man. I was thinking more along the lines of the Reformation, when Catholic churches were officially forbidden in Holland but Catholic house churches were OK as long as they discretely used a side entrance in an alley.

A great example worth a visit when you're in Amsterdam can be found here:

http://www.opsolder.nl/eng/museum-geschiedenis.php

"For over two hundred years Hartman's attic served as a parish church for Catholics in the city centre. Of course the Protestant authorities knew about the hidden church, but they turned a blind eye. Amsterdam's policy was to tolerate the diversity of faiths that flourished in the city."

Nationalistic pride has nothing to do with it. The US didn't even exist as a country back then.

Well, I certainly wish that you had kept the Puritans that had fled England and lived in exile in the Netherlands. They ended up in the Americas and sought, in spite of what the Mayflower Compact says, to establish a theocracy. I wish that they had liked the lowlands culture.

And, BS RT, your posts are about national pride in this thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2013 06:16PM by No Mo.

Whatever rocks your boat, bro.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 01:41PM by rt.

"Pretty soon, the government will realize it's too expensive to go after an entire population so they announce that they won't."

I don't have the exact quote but Michael Moore said in one of his movies that the difference between Americans and Europeans is that Americans are afraid of their government but in Europe the governments are afraid of their people

jealous

Yea, I'm ashamed of the state I live in. When republicans get control they want to shove a probe up a woman's vagina. When Mormon republicans get control they want to tell you WHEN in the course of a meal you can have a drink.

And they all claim that government is "out of control".

Good gawd almighty the hypocrisy!

Crap, I thought Alabama was f**ked up.

the whole state is INSANE

It is tyranny of the majority. It is what the Founding Fathers sought to avoid. Often they pass such inane laws that the State has to spend considerable money to defend in court, and end up losing. Censoring HBO comes to mind. Unfortunately and sadly, puritanical values still prevail in the US and liquor laws are not viewed as a mode to "establish justice, insure domestic tranquility,... promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty" in this hypocritical land of ours. Gawd, I hate the Puritans and the Pilgrims and other theocrats. And to think that the Pilgrims ended up in near Cape Cod instead of Virginia where they actually had a charter because they ran out of beer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 02:08PM by No Mo.

How embarrassing for them, to continue displaying so shamelessly their ridiculous attempts to force their silly, backward religion down their citizens' throats.

Didn't they loosen alcohol laws up for the Olympics, or am I mis-remembering something?

Back to business as usual, wasting lots of time and money trying to figure out how to rigidly control people's private, legal behavior (adults ordering drinks).

Yes, they did loosen the laws for the Olympics because they did not want the world to perceive them as strange. They also allowed drinking at the airport without a club card (in the past you had to belong to a club to drink, now they just restrict you to very short, metered and audited pours) so the world passing through Utard did not deem them as weird.

By the way RT, one of the venue where I did party during the 2002 Winter Olympics was with the very friendly Dutch in their tent near the speed skating rink. They had beer and brats and music which wouldn't have happened without the temporary changes in the law.

My grandson recently got a ticket for underage drinking. He was not driving. He was not drunk. He was at a sporting event and did not have the beer with him, but he did not pass the breathalyzer. An officer just walked up to the group he was with and asked if they had been drinking and then took them out of the stadium and tested them. He is a nineteen year old college student. He faces a $500.00 fine, revocation of his drivers license and community service.

With any luck, he will only be out the fine and the attorney's fees and maybe some community service. It was a dumb thing for him to do, and I sure hope he learned his lesson, because he has two more years before he can drink legally and a second strike means mandatory revocation of the driver's license.

62% per the inflated numbers. BYU sociologist Tim Heaton let slip that if 62% was the official number that would be 41.6% active Mormon.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596

crom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 62% per the inflated numbers. BYU sociologist Tim
> Heaton let slip that if 62% was the official
> number that would be 41.6% active Mormon.
>
> http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596

Heaton didn't actually say that. The Trib extrapolated a rough guess from Heaton. I wish that the cult would be more transparent in their numbers, but my guess is that will never happen. I think that Heaton is wrong and the numbers are actually lower, but my background is from California and the figures were considered to be 25% active.

From the article:

"Professor Tim Heaton, who studies LDS demographics for church-owned Brigham Young University, says the county numbers probably come from church membership rolls, and that between half and one-third of those people are not active in the faith. If that's true, then, at most, 41.6 percent of Utahns are church-going Mormons."

One of those responsible for the passage of this legislature is frankly an asshole I served with on my mission, Francis D. Gibson in District 65. He was a pompous ass in the mission field, all full of himself, telling exaggerated stories and the like. When I heard he became a Senator on one hand I wasn't surprised given his narcissistic, self-elevated persona. So glad I don't live in Utah anymore!

Break out the Burka's! Sharia law is alive and well in Utah.

On Corvallis, Oregon in the 1980's places had an R license. you had to purchase food. Initially places were pub like, aka served burgers and fries.
One place finally figured it out. They would sell you a half sandwich with your pitcher(s) of beer.

One Fridays there would be 1/2 sandwiches stacked at the end of long picnic tables.

Seems like the same workaround is needed here. I had the intent to eat the food.

Does it have to be food that you order and pay for? What about just bringing out a basket of chips and salsa or something?

I think they say that's not good enough. That the person has to pay for the food. I went to a restaurant and the bartender just told us we should pay for some 1 dollar breadsticks.