I mentioned last week my mother attended education week and went to a class by David B. Marsh on disbelief.

Here is a great summary from the Deseret news.

http://deseretnews.com/article/865585321/How-LDS-Church-members-can-help-themselves-and-loved-ones-deal-with-doubt.html

It looks like the church is acknowledging many people have doubts.

I think this approach will bridge the conversation gap and open the dialogue with family members. This in turn could get family members to listen to the legitimate concerns of disbelievers and even allow TBMs to not be fearful of looking at the issues.

I think it's an anecdotal step in the right direction but reeks of more attempts at inoculating the base membership.

What do you think? Will this approach work or expedite the droves who leave?

From the article:

"While searching for reliable sources, individuals should keep in mind historical context, the motivations of the author and any half-truths."

The motivations of the author and any half truths. Hmmm. I guess lds.org is OUT! :)

Which side is more likely to tell you the truth? The author that wants 10% of your income, and most of your free time, or the author that has no agenda other than to get the truth out there?

The entire approach is WRONG. "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your belief." WTF?! What they're saying is: "Doubt yourself before you doubt the church. Doubt is a personal problem you can overcome by suppressing it and making yourself believe."

Skepticism is not a weakness. It is a sign you have a functional brain. Every proposition should be approached from a standpoint of skepticism, especially if that proposition is a "gospel" that wants to control every aspect of your life, right down to your diet and underwear. If you want me to live that way, I don't have to start from the assumption you're right and prove you wrong. The burden of proof is on YOU.

Blaming the doubter for doubting, and insisting the cure is just to believe more, is the definition of circular reasoning. If something is actually true, it will be verifiable, whether the person testing it wants it to be or not.

"You can't doubt something if you don't believe something." OF COURSE YOU CAN.

Would a statement like this possibly fall in the BITE model describing cults?

I'm just asking because it is a stupid cult.

Doubt your doubts is synonymous with put your issues on the shelf and ignore it. Not very helpful advice unless you just want to believe regardless. It not a tool to actually find the truth.

..."Walk headlong into the wood chipper and hold your head high as you reaffirm the faith, and discard all doubt".

"I think it's an anecdotal step in the right direction but reeks of more attempts at inoculating the base membership. What do you think? Will this approach work or expedite the droves who leave?"

They can't inoculate the members. Nobody can inoculate me from an aversion to having a donkey schlong stuck in my ear - bit by bit, every day. But it's nice to know folks might feel free to say, "hey, is that a donkey dick in my ear?"

Love the donkey dick.
Reminds me of the "Hey is that a ferret hanging out of your ass?" post from Scooter last year.

Original thread:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,523421,523531

Ferret explained:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,762526,762574

I do think the Inoculation technique works to some degree. On my mission I had heard about there being other versions of the first vision, along with a faithful explanation. So even though I had never read them myself, when I heard about it again I was not shocked and thought, so what? Its just different versions of the same story...... however when I first came across the BoA issue, it became a huge problem for me. Part of the reason being I had never heard about it before, and had taught lessons from the manual that the church no longer had any of the papyrus. That feeling af being lied to is what lead me to start my research. If I had heard about it before, even with the, move along nothing to see here, mantra, I might not have let it bother me enough.

Scary I know.

All of this recent reactionary effort by the church amounts to a back-handed admission that its members are leaving in droves.

If everything were OK, the leaders would find much better things to be talking about, and much better ways to be spending their time.

your greatest attention goes first to where you are wounded.

I agree, and I think they have no good way out, because things that are not true are difficult to defend rationally. All they can do is some minor inoculation of the already faithful, and appeal to the less reflective individuals who swallow the story that faith is stronger than reason. Those sort of people are becoming much more scarce. They are predominately poor, uneducated or live in backward areas of the world. They will not be a profit center for the corporation. Mormonism has peaked out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 10:26PM by rationalist01.

"Mormonizm has peaked out."

I hope so.....but look at the muslim faith.....

People don't doubt doubts. Doubt doubts doubts.

"But but but...... How can all these wonderful and intelligent people be wrong??

"They CAN'T be wrong. It's just too good and it feels too right.

"I'm going with my gut. I love the church. I'm staying Mormon."

*sigh*

"It looks like the church is acknowledging many people have doubts."

Sooo...the question I have here is do the other big Christian churches HAVE to address "doubt" of their respective religious beliefs with their members?? (thinking Catholics, Lutherans, the many flavors of Baptists).

To HAVE to address the doubt that some "questioning-Mormons" have with the church leadership says a lot to me. I think (unless anyone here can prove me wrong) the other major Christian religions just let their members not believe and leave if they choose to...

I agree with the poster that this approach is a good thing. While there's obviously an LDS spin to it, at least they are encouraging members to be sympathetic to doubters and not to simply judge and shun them. And they are actually offering a fairly open-minded approach to the issue of doubt and researching the truth.

"As we see people struggle with these things we must have complete compassion and love for them and immediately stretch out our hand. Don’t wait.”

“Help your friend not to feel embarrassed by having doubts. They may start to feel like they’re unworthy or less than the other members that don’t appear to have any doubts. So help them understand that it’s OK, that they don’t need to feel embarrassed.”

This is a good thing for those of us who are having to confess our doubts or unbelief to friends or loved ones. By the above suggestions they should not shun or judge us. They should be compassionate to our status as doubting members and not punish us for it.

Instead of taking a wholly black and white approach like they used to, they are telling the individual to use judgement instead of just the "stick your head in the sand" approach to researching the truth. Its far different from the scare tactics and threats we usually hear from them.

The below statements are saying its OKAY to doubt and its OKAY to question and to investigate. These are all good things for us non-believers as it may open members minds a little bit to the idea that they CAN look at the evidence and if they start to doubt its OKAY as long as their intentions are good. I see these statements as more in the middle of the road. More open-minded than what we usually hear from Mormons. Mormons are so terrified of looking at anything that might cause them to doubt but this article seems to allay that fear. I hope that some Mormons might take away from this article that its OKAY to dig into things that aren't just faith promoting. Maybe be a little more open minded to studying all sources.

"For both those dealing with doubt and those supporting a loved one, Marsh said it's important to realize that neither science nor religion has all the answers."

“So be careful about that. Be humble about what you think you know right now because it may change tomorrow.”

"Because truth is discovered one piece at a time, Marsh encouraged audience members to examine, study and research issues, always being open to the possibility that new information may come along at a later time. While searching for reliable sources, individuals should keep in mind historical context, the motivations of the author and any half-truths."

"Marsh encouraged those struggling with doubts to be patient and remember that questioning can be the beginning of a journey that will strengthen their testimonies."

“Inquiry is the birthplace of testimony. Some might feel embarrassed or unworthy because they have searching questions regarding the gospel,” President Uchtdorf said. “But they needn’t feel that way. Asking questions isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a precursor of growth.”

“Doubts are evidences of belief. You can’t doubt something if you don’t believe something.”

I think everyone dealing with friends or family in your non-belief should print out these articles and highlight the above quotes. Maybe the close minded and judgmental Mormons you are having a hard time with might soften their stance a little bit after hearing of the above statements.

Ignore our lies and remember how good they made you feel.

I think all this is "lip service."

To me and my family, the Mormons are saying the same old stuff: When you stop being active in our cult, we will threaten you with financial ruin, shunning, the failure of your children. Then, they do whatever they can to make all these bad things happen. Thank God my career is not influenced by Mormons! Mormons threaten apostates with outer darkness, "God will withdraw His blessings", and eternal separation from your family.

Mormons are saying to go ahead and do something that they can't stop you from doing, anyway! So, now it is ok to quietly ask what is sticking out of your ear.

"Go ahead and ask--but we have your family firmly hijacked and brainwashed, and we have taught them to disrespect you and shun you, if you dare try to leave the cult."

"The Family" is the Mormons' greatest weapon, and as long as they have that weapon--the doubting peons can whine and posture all they want--but the Mormons will keep them in the end. Remember, as a cult, the Mormons are extremely arrogant and aggressive. Don't think for one second that the Mormons will ever play fair.