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Posted by: Craig ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 12:31PM

I have a very dear friend whose sister just found out she has cancer...stage 4. She has had cancer for at least the past 8 years and had no symptoms until just the past two months. So now she is looking at the very real possibility that she her days are numbered.

The other day she told her sister, my friend, that her deceased mother, father and sister have all come and visited her in the past month. She is as non-religious as you can get and has never been religious in her life. Her dad, who was not a great father when he was alive, told her he has her back and not to be afraid. Her mother just sat there looking at her and finally told her to get off her ass and get better. Her sister who also died of cancer told her that she was not ready for her to be there with her yet so get off her ass and stop feeling sorry for herself and get better.

Now, this was very interesting to me because I know this lady and she didn't tell her sister about this until almost a month after it happened and it wasn't like "Hey look at how special I am" it was just in conversation my friend mentioned their sister who has passed and that was when she told my friend about this.

I am a believer that when we die that is not the end. I believe that the spark that keeps this body alive and that gives me conscience doesn't just extinguish never to be heard from again when I die. The human is just too complex for me to accept that we blip into existence when we are born and we pass into nothingness when we die. Anyway, I know our good buddy Steve Benson adamantly feels that when we die that is it, period, done, that's the end folks, but all religion aside, I just can't accept that this amazing creation called the human being just blinks into existence and blinks out of existence with nothing before or after coming here to this life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

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Posted by: Glo ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 12:55PM

I believe life goes on.

Thank God, though, Mormonism has nothing to do with it.
It would be a nightmare to have this Nazi bureaucracy running things.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:04AM

Please cite tangible, testable evidence.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 06:20AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Xyandro ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 12:58PM

Regardless of anecdotal evidence (which ISN'T evidence), there's no way to know.

So live your life according to what you can see (the here and now). If it continues after death, BONUS! If not, at least you didn't waste the time you had.

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Posted by: slipperyslope ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 01:14PM

There are many after-death-visitation stories in my large extended family. A message may be delivered. A small child may see a deceased relative.
When I listen to scientists like Dawkins and Sagan, I am almost convinced that my family stories are humanly-created. Yet when I hear my relatives tell their stories with tears and awe, who am I to say they made them up?
There is so much we don't know.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:06AM

That's even more key.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 06:07AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: GoneFishinOnSunday ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 01:15PM

Well, here's my story. My sister committed suicide when she was 17. A little over a year later, my mother, who was living with me at the time, didn't come home one night. I drove around to all the places I thought she might be, but didn't find her. Finally, around 2 a.m., I decided, she's a big girl and she'll come home when she's ready, so I went to bed and went to sleep. I dreamed that she and my sister came to me, told me they were together, and that they were happy. Then, they left together. I woke up, and knew my mother was dead. We found her later that morning. She had locked herself in my dad's garage as he was out of town, and killed herself.

I believe there is more after death, and that whatever it is, we'll be with our loved ones and we'll be okay.

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Posted by: EternityIsnow ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 01:20PM

Yes, I believe our consciousness goes on, but nothing of the human does. I think Steve B is partly right, when the human dies that is it for the human, no literal continuation, no resurrection, just the end. There is no 'spark of life' for the human being. But the conscious being inside never was the human, our consciousness seems to be part of a greater universal consciousness.

My source for this view is personal, when I was sick one time I 'left' my body. My consciousness that is. The experience was awesome, everything was more vivid and real than any human experience. This is not proof of course, it is subjective. But millions of people have had this experience. And the 'tunnel' type experiences that can be experienced while using magnets over the brain, or certain drugs, I don't think that compares well with the depth or coherence of some NDEs reported.

We will all find out sooner or later. I had an atheist neighbor who had an NDE during heart surgery, visited with his dead brother. Afterwards, well, he was still an atheist. He did not have an explanation for the experience but also it did not 'persuade' him to change his views of the afterlife. But there have been many people who do change their views after experiences like that. We seem to believe what we want to.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:08AM

. . . why, say, are both consciousness and personality affected by physically-caused brain trauma?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 06:09AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 01:43PM

So far as I can tell there is NO hard evidence to support this hypothesis.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 01:47PM

I think there is some type of existence after death. I have no idea how it works or how its set up. I don't know if anyone is in charge, or if we're in charge of ourselves the same way we are here.

It will be interesting to find out what comes next.

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Posted by: closer2fine ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 01:50PM

Still..... I'm glad you shared this......I love to hear these stories and definitely hope that life goes on. Even if I also doubt too.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 01:58PM

why do human beings think that dreams come from outside the brain?
dreams are simply stories that our hemispheres relate to pass the time.
Under stress we want to be reassured, so the handy dandy brain takes care of that!
librarian

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Posted by: rain ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 02:37PM

^^ This ^^

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 02:43PM

Life does go on after death. Sperms and eggs unite to create new beings as old ones continue to die. It's a natural statistical product of billions of years of evolution, which, like you said, has grown quite complex.

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Posted by: iflewover ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 03:03PM

Well, if you believe in evidence, then No, life does not continue after death.

Available evidence to date points very much against life after death.

There is however, a significant amount of available evidence to date that points to NDEs and dreams/visions as originating in our own brains/memories/desires.

Why do you want a different life may I ask?

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Posted by: Craig ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 05:06PM

I guess I forgot to mention that when she was visited by these people she was wide awake watching TV. They did not all come at the same time their visits were spaced a day or two apart.

As for me, I cannot say with any certainty that life continues after death, as everyone has said there is no hard evidence that can prove this theory, but I had an experience once several years ago and from what I experienced and learned on that occasion left me with a very real and permanent feeling that I had received knowledge that leads me to believe that life does go on.

In my mind what transpires after we die is absolutely nothing like what the morg teaches, it is as different as night and day, but if it happens the way I think it will, it is going to be way better than anything any church teaches.

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Posted by: Lasvegasrichard ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 05:28PM

Not much consolation here , but this is a huge club as over 7 billion of us will all be dead in a hundred year time frame , and we'll all know then .

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Posted by: fluhist ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 08:00PM

Thankyou Craig,Gonefishnonsunday, and eternitynow, for sharing your experiences. I totally beleive in the the ongoing existance of the essence of ourselves and in the power of love to bring those we love together again (yes even WITHOUT temple sealings heh heh!) How or where I don't know, but it doesn't make sense to me that this old world is "IT". Craig I like the way you put it, it isn't about 'blinking into existance when we are born and simply blinking out again when we die". To me there is more to it all. There is no way to prove it either way, abnd I don't expect to prove it. It is about personal feeling and faith (not the mormon kind, the real kind), in something more. And yes I beleive in something more. Nail me to the ground, if you want, but that is what I beleive.

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Posted by: GQ Cannonball ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 12:30AM

Nice. I agree and like the way you describe this.

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Posted by: NYCGal ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 08:45PM

Thank you for posting your stories -- Craig, Gonefishnonsunday and eternitynow. I waiver between there is no existence whatsoever after death (and in some odd way, I think that's a relief as I'm not sure I want to continue after death) and a belief that there is definitely something that continues. Whether it's an energy source, a soul, who knows?

Moreover, I waiver between the two views of the afterlife even though I have had three very vivid and unforgetable visits (in dreams) from two dead relatives and one dear dead friend.

Additionally, my brother had a visit (by dream) from our niece before she was born. Our unmarried sister had told him that she was about five weeks pregnant with her second child. My brother got angry with her asking why one out-of-wedlock child wasn't sufficient. Now she was having another with a different father. They parted acrimoniously.

That night, my brother had a very vivid dream of a little girl about age 5 or 6. She spoke to my brother and said that she knew it would not be an easy life but she would be coming to her mother (our sister) because she wanted to be part of our family. My brother called me to tell me about the fight with our sister and the dream later that night. He described the little girl in detail -- very long dark straight hair past her waist, dark eyes and very thick and remarkable eyebrows for a little girl -- almost a unibrow.

Okay, okay. A few weeks later, it was confirmed our sister would be having a baby girl. When she was born, she had dark hair and eyes. By the time she was 5, she had dark straight hair past her waist and dark, heavy eyebrows. She is 9 years old now. She has such thick, dark brows that her mother has them waxed regularly.

Not any kind of proof, I know. In fact, I still tend toward nothing before and nothing after this life.

And yet . . . .

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Posted by: NotSoSure ( )
Date: September 11, 2013 09:49PM

I believe our lives continue after we leave our physical body. Is there proof? Well, to people who believe, visits from dead relatives, confirmation from a medium, etc. are all the proof they need. To those who don't believe, all of those things and more will never be enough to convince them otherwise. But as for me and my house, we believe.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 12, 2013 08:56PM

. . . can't believe that life blinks out of existence. Weird.

Earth to the earth-bound: When your brain dies, you die.

To believe, as you do, in the magical world of immortality is to buy into notions that have no basis in empirical reality.

Enjoy your short spin through life on the insignificant little rock we call our world, located in a spiral tail along the outer edges of the Milky Way.

http://idnami.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/milky-way.gif


As Carl Sagan observed shortly before dying of cancer:

"The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides."

(Sagan, "Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium")



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2013 09:23PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: GQ Cannonball ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 03:04AM

News flash: when your brain dies, you die.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 05:24AM


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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:37AM

How do you know that you blink into existence? How do you know that you blink out of existence?

You are presenting these as facts when they are suppositions on your part. Atheists pontificate about the foolishness of theists, but atheists have no more evidence than theists.

In the world today, there are 2 billion Christians, half of them Catholic, 1.5 billion Muslims, 1.5 billion Buddhists, 1 billion Hindus, and a handful of other religions. All of them belief in an afterlife of some form or another.

I'm not saying they are correct, but you are flatly calling them all fools. What evidence do you have to discredit their beliefs?

You don't know that life ceases. You believe that. You believe that based on no evidence whatsoever. About 1/3 of the people in the world believe in reincarnation. How can you know if you lived before or not?

The answer is that you don't. I can respect atheism as a belief system, as a rejection of traditional religions, but I cannot respect that atheists have any more scientific evidence for their nihilistic viewpoint than any other religion.

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Posted by: fallacy ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 09:35AM

Sorry, logical fallacy, trying to switch the burden of proof, don't get to do that. Claim to believe something, you have to back it up, not disbelievers. Try again.

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Posted by: dawkinsisright ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 09:36AM

“Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain and presumptuous desire for a second one.”
― Richard Dawkins

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Posted by: Uncle Dale ( )
Date: September 12, 2013 10:59PM

Life?

Yes...

My life?

I certainly hope not.

UD

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Posted by: darksided ( )
Date: September 12, 2013 11:13PM

where does she live? Lifespark cancer resources is a good charity. You can google it.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2013 11:16PM

It seems to me that if there was evidence of the many kinds of beliefs in an after life, we would have some verified facts by now. Billions and billions of people have lived and died. Still nothing concrete.

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Posted by: darksided ( )
Date: September 12, 2013 11:17PM

still no facts that it doesn't exist either

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 05:30AM

Prove that Santa doesn't exist. (Can't see him? That's because he can make himself instantaneously invisible to the naked eye by rocketing up a chimney and into a gravitation-free, faster-than-the-speed-light, flying reindeer-pulled sleigh before you can even lay eyes on him).

It is not the skeptics who have the obligation to prove the negative--i.e., that life after death does not exist. Rather, the burden of proof rests with those who posit that life after death is, in fact, a fact.

Very well, then. Prove it's a fact.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 05:34AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Gay Philosopher ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 12:23AM

Susie,

What you said is very important.

Not just one, or one hundred, or even 10,000 or a MILLION humans have died.

BILLIONS of human beings have died.

BILLIONS!

In a few decades, we'll be among them.

BILLIONS of humans, just like YOU, have died.

They had dreams and fears. They went on nervous dates. They got sick. They read books and listened to music--at least, many millions of them. Millions more wrote e-mails, asking the same kinds of questions that we're asking right now. Now, they're dead.

And from all of those deaths, we have no evidence whatsoever to suggest survival, that I'm aware of.

Why?

Steve

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Posted by: GQ Cannonball ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 12:34AM

And yet...there are so many earthbound things we haven't even solved. Who are we to think we can solve the greatest of all questions? I am a healthy skeptic, which makes me skeptical to think we are smart enough to answer life's greatest mystery.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 05:36AM

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Before answering that, though, prove that angels exist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 06:17AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: laurel ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 12:35AM

I had an NDE. I don't share it because of the naysayers-but, I am content and not afraid.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 05:40AM

NDEs and OBEs are nothing exceptional, has empirical science as amply demonstrated through observation, experimentation, replication and falsification. In reality, they are nothing more than but brain-caused hallucinations brought on by anything from oxygen deprivation to the brain itself, to in-brain receptors taking in LSD-like substances which induce organic-chemical responses which NDE believers mistakenly interpret as manifestations of life-after-death experiential realities--which they demonstrably are not.
_____


Let's review some basics:

In a previous post, RfM contributor “Jesus Smith” referenced an intriguing and informative science article on the brain activity of dying rats--one which underscored the neuro-biological realities (not spiritual mythologies) of so-called “near-death experiences” (NDEs).

(“NDE in Rats? Think Again, If You're Not Brain Dead,” posted by “Jesus Smith,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” discussion board, 13 August 2013, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,988289,988289#msg-988289)


The article, headlined “Near-Death Experiences Are 'Electrical Surge in Dying Brain,'” reports that based on the results of experiments published in the “Proceedings of the National Academy of Sicience,” the brain at the edge of death is, according to the study’s lead author Dr. Jimo Borigin (University of Michigan), "much more active during the dying process than even the waking state."

The article reports that the near-death process of the brain involves a myriad of neurological sensations, as described by those experiencing the NDE, These range "[f]rom bright white lights to out-of-body sensations and feelings of life flashing before their eyes . . . .”

Borigin notes that tests performed on dying rats detected the presence of upper-frequency, electrically-pulsing gamma rays which “were found at even higher levels just after the cardiac arrest than when animals were awake and well”--and which Borigin believes could feasibly “happen in the human brain, and that an elevated level of brain activity and consciousness could give rise to near-death visions.”

The article reports the enthusiastic response of other scientists to the research findings:

“Commenting on the research, Dr. Jason Braithwaite, of the University of Birmingham, said the phenomenon appeared to be the brain's ‘last hurrah.’

"’This is a very neat demonstration of an idea that's been around for a long time: that under certain unfamiliar and confusing circumstances--like near-death--the brain becomes over-stimulated and hyper-excited,’ he said.

"’Like “fire raging through the brain,” activity can surge through brain areas involved in conscious experience, furnishing all resultant perceptions with realer-than-real feelings and emotions.’

“But he added: ‘One limitation is that we do not know when, in time, the near-death experience really occurs. Perhaps it was before patients had anaesthesia, or at some safe point during an operation long before cardiac arrest.

"’However, for those instances where experiences may occur around the time of cardiac arrest --or beyond it --these new findings provide further meat to the bones of the idea that the brain drives these fascinating and striking experiences.’”

(“Near-Death Experiences Are 'Electrical Surge in Dying Brain,'” by Rebecca Morelle, science reporter, “BBC World Service” 12 August 2013, at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23672150)
_____


These findings underscore what mainstream science has known for some time about both the planetary reality and the in-brain neuro-chemistry of “near-death experiences.”

As Matthew Alper, author of “The ‘God’ Part of the Brain: A Scientific Interpretation of Human Spirituality and God,” writes:

“. . . [[T]he near-death experience has been reported by a cross-section of nearly every population and must therefore constitute an inherent part of the human condition. As with all other cross-cultural behaviors, this would suggest that the near-death experience . . . most likely represents the consequence of a genetically-inherited trait, a biologically-based response to specific stimuli. Though near-death experiences are conventionally interpreted from a spiritual perspective—the consequence of a brief encounter with the afterworld—I assert that, like all other spiritually-conceived experiences, these, too, are STRICTLY NEURO-PHSYIOLOGICAL IN NATURE” (emphasis added).

Alper proceeds to make the case for the NDE as a purely biological, neurological and chemical phenomenon occurring within the brain itself that is NOT connected to, or stemming from, any so-called “out-of-body” or “spiritual” experience. He breaks these organic causes into various categories.
_____


--NDEs and the Depletion of Oxygen/Blood Flow to the Brain

Alper explains that oxygen and blood supplies are nearly always critical factors in the production of NDEs:

“For starts, near-death experiences almost always occur as a result of decreased blood flow to the brain and/or a lack of oxygen, usually from shock induced either fro severe infection (septic shock), from myocardial ischemia (cardiogenic shock), cardiac arrest or the effects of anesthesia. Apparently, the NDS is integrally linked to one’s physical chemistry.”
_____


--Accounts of Intense Bright Lights During NDEs Are Interpreted by Believers as Proof of an Immortal Soul and Afterlife, but Science Has a Sounder Explanation

Alper recounts how Plato, in his “Republic,” tells “the story of Er, the son of Armenius, who allegedly dies and then comes back to tell the story of his existence during his temporary ascension to heaven and consequent return to the living. During Er’s experience with death, he describes a vison he had of a ‘bright and pur column of light, extending right through the whole of heaven.’ Such descriptions of visions of a bright and often dazzling or blind light leading to heave constitutes one of the key symptoms of the NDE and therefore leads many to believe that what Plato was narrating was just that. It is through Er/s tale that Plato goes on to advance the notion of an immortal soul, as well as an afterlife in his work. As a matter of fact, the NDE might very well represent one of the primary means through which humans validate a belief in some form of an afterlife. . . .

“ . . . [A] common symptom of the NDE, similar to the one narrated [above]by Plato, is described as a sensation of being led down a dark tunnel and then drawn toward a blinding white light, one that is often interpreted as holding religious significance, such as being representative of heaven’s gates. (Such descriptions as these—of experiencing a ‘piercing’ or ‘blinding’ white light—have been attributed to activity within the brain’s optic nerve which has a tendency to erratically flare when deprived of its normal oxygen supply). It is during this same part of the experience that a person will often express a feeling of being engulfed, not just by ‘the light,’ but also by God’s presence.”
_____


--Endorphins Explain the NDE Ecstasy

Alper offers scientific explanations for NDE good vibrations:

“Though there is no international standard through which to formally define a NDE, studies show vast similarities in description of this phenomenon, ones that cross all cultural boundaries (Fenwick, 1997; Feng and Lin, 1976, Parischa and Stevenson, 1986) . . . [I]n the majority of recorded accounts, the first thing most recall of their experience is a feeling of intense fear and pain that is suddenly replaced by a sense of clam, peace and equanimity (similar to those sensations attributed to more generic spiritual experiences). To offer support of a neuro-physical model to explain this phenomenon, D. B Carr suggested (1981, 1989) that the aforementioned sensations, in so far as they are experienced during a NDE, might come as a result of a flood release of endogenous opiods (endorphins).”
_____


--The NDE Cousin (the Out-of-Body Experience") Is Way More In-the-Brain than Out-of-the-Body

Alper addresses the relationship between OBEs and NDEs:

“[In order of frequency after the ‘sense of calmness or euphoria’ produced in a NDE], the next most often-related symptom to occur during an NDE is that of an OBE, or ‘out-of-body’ experience. Here, the person describes a sensation of rising or floating outside of one’s physical body and, in some cases, even being able to look down at one’s self from above. One hospital, in order to validate claims of ‘out –of-‘body’ experiences, placed an LED marquee above its patients’ beds which displayed a secret message that could only be read if one were looking down from above. To date, not one person who has claimed to have had a NDE or ‘out-of-body’ experience from within this hospital has expressed having seen the message.

“During this part of the [NDE] experience, those undergoing an OBE have expressed a sense that their limbs are ‘moving within their mind,’ though they are actually immobile. This is similar to the type of hallucinations, or ‘confabulations,’ suffered by those who sustain right parietal lesions--yet another indication that such experiences can be traced to one’s neuro-physical activity as opposed to originating from one’s alleged spirit or soul.”
_____


--“Spiritual” Commonalities between NDEs, Epileptic Seizures and Psychedelic Drug Use

Alper explains the shared effects among the three:

“Similar to accounts of those who have had either a temporal lob seizure or experimented with entheogenic [psychedelic] drugs, those who have undergone a NDE will almost invariably interpret the experience as being spiritual in nature:

“’Hallucinogen ingestion and temporolimbic epilepsy produce a near-identical experience as described by persons having a near-death experience. These brain disturbances produce de-personalization, de-realization, ecstasy, a sense of timelessness and spacelessness, and other experiences that foster religious-numinous interpretation.’ (‘Journal of Neuropsychiatry: Clinical Neuroscience,' 1997, Summer 9[3], pp. 498-510)

“Consequently, it is no surprise that a significant number of those who undergo a NDE claim that it strengthens their faith in God, a soul and an afterlife. Regardless of how these experiences are interpreted, we must ask ourselves: ‘Is this type of experience transcendental in nature or, like all other types of spiritual experiences, are we dealing with a serious of strictly neuro-physical events?’”
_____


--NDEs are Facilitated by the Brain’s Chemical-Transmitting Receptors

Alper describes how brain-based chemicals create the NDE experience:

“One key to answering [the above] question comes through the research of a Dr. Karl Jansen who has found that ‘[n]ear-death experiences can be induced by using the dissociative drug ketamine’ (K.I.R. Jansen, M.D., ‘Using Ketamine to Induce the Near-Death Experience,’ p. 64).

"Dr. Jansen’s report goes on to state that ‘[i]t is now clear that NDEs are due to the blockade of brain receptors (drug-binding sites) for the neurotransmitter glutamate. These binding sites are called the N-methly-D-asparate (NMDA) receptors. Conditions which precipitate NDEs (low oxygen, low blood flow, low blood sugar, temporal lobe epilepsy, etc.) have been shown to release a flood of glutamate, over-activating NMDA receptors. Conditions which trigger a glutamate flood may also trigger a flood of ketamine-like brain chemicals, leading to an altered state of consciousness,’ (ibid., p. 73)

“It was also found than an intravenous injection of 50-100mg of ketamine reproduces all of the features commonly associated with the near-death experience. (Sputz, 1989; Jansen, 1995, 1996). Even Timothy Leary, the notorious psychedelic drug advocate of the 1960s, described his experiences with ketamine as an ‘experiment in voluntary death’ (Leary, 1983).

“Similar to the manner in which entheogenic drugs trigger the symptoms of a ‘spiritual’ experience, the drug ketamine can be used to synthetically trigger the symptoms of a near-death experience. “
_____


--Neuro-Chemistry, Not Spirituality, is the Source of NDEs

Alper lays out the scientific foundations of NDEs:

“What [the above] suggests is that, as with any other type of spiritual experience, near-death experiences are rooted in our neuro-chemistry. Apparently, the NDE represents the consequence of a physiological mechanism that enables our species to cope with the overwhelming pain and anxiety associated with the experience of death and dying.

“Once again, though such evidence can never prove there is not spiritual reality, it is certainly indicative that this might very well be the case. “

(Matthew Alper, “The God Part of the Brain: A Scientific Interpretation of Human Spirituality and God” [New York, New York: Rogue Press, 2000], Chapter 8, “Near-Death Experiences,” pp. 140-43, and “Endnotes,” #79-81, p. 177)

**********


For those who might still want to believe in the alleged "spiritual/religious/godly/immortal" reality of NDEs, you're in a sense right:

It's all in your head. Enjoy the ride.

:)



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 06:46AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Checker of minor facts ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 12:53AM

I don't know. I guess I'll believe it when I see it.

Speaking of NDEs... My late, older brother once suggested that the NDE we experience for 2 or 3 mano-seconds before final brain death is all the heavenly afterlife we'll need, or get. I kinda think he's right.

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Posted by: luge ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 01:12AM

I believe our spirits continue to be. However, I am just not sure about all the Mormon beliefs of God, Kingdoms, etc. But I know that our spirits continue on as I have had experiences after my grandpa died that makes me not be able to deny it. The extent of it all is where my curiosity lies.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:01AM

So, how are your beliefs in a "spirit"-resplendent afterlife any more credible than the Mormon ones?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 06:16AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 01:26AM

1) They are within our brains' workings.
2) Visitors from beyond NEVER provide INFORMATION.

By information, I mean they never say anything except what we already know or can deduce. Even apparent prophesies before-the-fact, on closer examination, were empirically predictable.

I think our brains work ahead of us. Where do our dreams come from? So often they seem totally novel, a whole new experience...where did my brain get that?

But in every case, the visitation is OBJECTIVELY UN-OBJECTIVE.

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Posted by: GQ Cannonball ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 01:58AM

So...if our brains are so complex, what keeps the universe and life after death from being more complex...unattainable to fully grasp in this life? My ears can't hear a simple dog whistle, for goodness sake. Asked with curiosity and respect...

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 05:54AM

. . . and, based on scientific evidence, continue to grow in complexity over time. With all due respect, an introductory college course in evolutionary biology demonstrates that fact.

As to the differences between species in terms of capabilities, organisms uniquely evolve over (generally-speaking) long periods of time in response to the unique environments (often ones that create conditions of geographic isolation) in which they live--and this evolutionary track is accomplished through the operative processes of mutation and natural selection.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 06:15AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:07AM

If our minds were simple enough to understand, we would be too stupid to grasp it.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 02:39AM

If by life you mean non-existence, then yes. That goes on anon after death.

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Posted by: saviorself ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 02:49AM

How can the Scientific Method be used to prove that (1) humans have a "spirit", and (2) the spirit continues to live after the physical body dies?

The anecdotes described in this thread are the poster's alleged experience. They are based in unverifiable magic, just like the foundations of the Mormon church. That is the kind of stuff that my rational brain used to dump the church -- no "belief in magic."

The first step in getting people to accept that such anecdotes are "true" (an over-used Church word) is to be able to use the Scientific Method to prove them.

Sooo -- how can that be done?

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:05AM

Only the dead know and dead men tell no tales.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:16AM


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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 06:25AM

The arrogance of atheists to dismiss the beliefs of billions of people really offends me. Just admit you do not know or believe and move on. Why do you get so much pleasure mocking those with a spiritual side?

That comment was just plain rude. Unless you have any evidence to add, you no know more than anyone else.

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Posted by: saviorself ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 08:16AM

If I claim that The Flying Spaghetti Monster visits my back yard on a regular basis and you doubt my claim then who needs to "prove" their position? Answer -- I do, of course.

A billion people believing the same thing does not make it true. For more than a million years every human on the planet believed that the Earth is flat. Turns out they were ALL wrong.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: September 13, 2013 10:08AM

Th-th-th-this is all folks!

Atheism is a belief, lol! Best laugh I've had all day. Fucking ridiculous.

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