A FB friend of mine invited me to like a page, sponsored by the LDS church called Support Religious Freedom. It led me to this link from LDS Inc.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/religious-freedom-resources

So it looks like the church is now setting themselves up as a defender of religious freedom. Ironic, since they seemed to want to crush my right to religious freedom (i.e to disagree with them and believe differently) like a bug underfoot. In fact, how many of us have been threatened by leadership if we dared repeat anything that made the church look bad - even if it was true. Wake up Mormons - that isn't religious freedom. It's religious dictatorship. You are defending your right to believe what you want while forcing people who disagree with you to shut the hail up. If anyone DOES disagree with you, you scream PERSECUTION. You scream about your religious rights being taken away from you but terrorizing those who disagree with you is NOT a religious right.

Not to mention that the last thing non-LDS/inactives/exmos need is Mormons with another reason to think they are nobly defending their religious rights and howling about the wrong supposedly done to them.

what a bunch of f-ing BS. That webpage is truly nauseating

The only religious freedom they are losing is the ability to impose their religion on other people.

Sounds an awful lot like the Puritans coming to America to escape religious persecution, only to set up their own religious police state.

Or was it the pioneers coming to Utah to escape religious persecution, only to set up a religious police state?

Quote:
" Leaders of many faiths, including Mormon apostles, have expressed deep concern that religious liberty is eroding in the United States and around the world. These resources contribute to the many conversations taking place on this topic and highlight freedom of religion as a fundamental human right that protects the conscience of all people and allows them to act upon what they deeply believe. Churches, religious organizations and individuals face increasing restrictions as they participate in the public square, exercise conscience in their professions, express their beliefs or serve in society."

Please educate us with actual evidence where Mormons have had their free-exercise of religion actually curtailed by government? Show us the laws that restrict the mormon church from preaching to its members whatever it wants. Show us how you've been prohibited from participating in the public square.

And then remember that other people have a right to be free from your religion in public too.

This is victimhood BS through and through.

F-ing mormon leaders think they're victims just after they were able, as a 2% minority relgion in the US, run a presidential candidate for the highest office in the US. And somehow him losing, apparently, means they're victims?

F-ing mormon leaders.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2013 12:58PM by Jesus Smith.

That jumped out at me too Mr. Smith.


"Increasing restrictions as they participate in the public square". . . .


. . . on a website posted on the internet, the most accessible public square in the history of the world.


I watched the whole thing and I've still absolutely no idea what it is they are complaining about.

I think this is a move to protect their tax exempt status

Saw that yesterday.

Cynical me says Erictheex has it exactly right.

They are worried that in the Sequestration/Debt Ceiling/Revenue Hungry/Everything-is-on-the-table mood in DC someone is going to ask why multi-billion dollar enterprises are not only opaque with their finances, but are getting a completely free tax ride. And they want to frame that discussion entirely as a religious freedom discussion.

We are not being cynical. From the moment JS conceived the BOM until today, there has not been a move made by TSCC that was not ultimately guided by money.

Polygamy will never be taken off the earth, we will defend it with our lives...oh wait you are taking our assets, oh yeah polygamy gotta go.

Black are forever cursed! of wait our tax exemption is at stake, yeah we never taught that.

JS tried to sell the copyright to the BOM, the created a bank without deposits to steal everyone's money, he created the law of consecration, etc etc

its about the money, always has been and always will be. When we look at the random changes, statement, practices and teaching of TSCC, they only make sense when you realize that their only goal is to get money.

This type of propaganda pisses me off.

Trying to stir up some sympathy for their severe case of victim-itis for sure.

Yeah, religious freedom pushed by an organization that says it's the "one truuuuuue church." Forgive me for not trembling with excitement.

Not just mormons- the evangelical christian churches are doing the same cry of persecution.

And that whole cry of persecution thing irritates me to no end. Do they even understand what persecution is? Mormonism, and some other Christian sects, seem to think persecution is being laughed at for beliefs that seem strange to the mainstream culture. Or they are persecuted for not being allowed to set the agenda for everyone i.e. not allowed to bully people into following God. Or that they are being persecuted by cultural acceptance of those who have different lifestyles, morals and values. Which, ironically, is what their Jesus taught - that you need to accept and love others.

None of the above is persecution. Do they even get that in other countries, Christians and other religious types are beaten, jailed, have their houses burned and other actual atrocities - just for speaking their mind about their religious beliefs? Real persecution is not about hurt feelings and is nothing to take lightly. And is nothing most of these Mormons "defending" their freedom will ever experience.

I agree that this is the set-up to fight back about having to disclose assets. It's more fraud. People actually believe that the tax-exempt status of religions is a First Amendment issue, that the government has no right to tax religions. The government chooses not to tax on the grounds that religions generally do charitable work, work the government would otherwise have to pay for.

However, when religions are operated as tax-dodges the reason for the exemption evaporates to the degree that the religion is competing with for-profit entities that are taxed. The taxation issue is both a way for the government to raise needed revenue and also to prevent tax exempt entities from gaining a competitive advantage over taxed entities competing in the same markets. Probably many mall-owners and other real estate holdings companies have been complaining to their legislators about this huge real estate company that pays taxes on its for-profit businesses, but only to the degree it chooses, and never actually reveals financials.

"...individuals face increasing restrictions as they participate in the public square, exercise conscience in their professions,...."

The part about conscience sounds like mormom businesses are afraid of health care, and and are saying that having to pay for birth control, morning-after pill, etc. are against their conscience, and are an attack on religious freedom.

It's a tad hypocritical to want freedom from having to divulge finances, like other 'non profits', but then they can call any member in and ask them a series of invasive, personal questions, and ex them if the member isn't toeing the line by their standards... Yet, TSCC as a religion and as a corporation takes part in capital America, but feels they should be immune from having to answer questions about finances...?! Explain that...

Mormonism was forced on me, and when I resisted I was punished and shunned.

Let's turn things around on the Mormon church's own terms and see how they like it:

Let's say that a group has a firm religious belief that the first and truly indisputable commandments to human beings are their INSTINCTS.

You can argue forever about whether Moses really did get God's instructions directly, or if Joseph Smith did or didn't see God (or a world of other religious claims) but -- What can NEVER be argued against is the fact that each one of us have received our own DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS FROM GOD at birth, in the form of our human instincts.

One of those direct instinct/commandments from our "maker" is to have sex - this truth is eminently factual and indisputable. This fact goes infinitely beyond ALL other religious claims and disputes. The sex drive DOES come from God (however you define god) and that is indisputable.

Therefore, having absolutely come from God, we have every right to regard sex as a religious commandment, and our claim is far more justified than all of the other unproven religious claims.

Therefore, we as adults can freely associate and participate with others who share our religious beliefs about God and God's evident will.

We, as adults, have a right to practice in our own "sex religion" as long as we don't harm the rights of others. With that condition, we can practice where, when, and how we may.

Thus we deserve our own Sex Temple, private ceremonies, naked touching, tax exemptions, selective membership, protective health codes etc. just as much as Mormonism has it's own practices and temple rites!

So then, will Mormonism oppose our legal and religious right to have private, selective, sex congregations (clubs) as tax exempt entities?

How could Mormonism argue against itself?

Especially with its own extraordinary sexual history?

Fair is fair.

Elder Russell M. Nelson was recently in Hawaii for a CES devotional, and met with all the stake presidents and the area authority.

He quoted Mosiah 29:26-27 to them, and stated that because the will of the majority of Americans seems to favor same sex marriage, the United States is ripe for imminent destruction. He also hinted that this message would be prominent at the October conference.

Weird for me as a Latter-day Saint who supports same-sex marriage. I guess the gauntlet has been thrown. If we're not destroyed, I can have a guilt free latte.

"because the will of the majority of Americans seems to favor same sex marriage, the United States is ripe for imminent destruction"

Same thing was said in America over voting rights for women, equality rights for blacks, desegregating schools . . .

And when that destruction fails to happen, look to the weasel words.

The second coming has been imminent for about 2000 years now.

Ironic and insulting considering how patronizing and judgmental some Mormons can get when you don't live THEIR religion.

CESguy has this exactly right: all the rhetoric regarding religious freedom is entirely about the ongoing marriage equality debate and nothing more.

I first heard this line of argument from Elders Cook and Ballard the summer after Prop 8 passed in California. As you'll remember, in the months following the proposition's passage, the church was taking a massive PR hit due to public demonstrations across the country and other forms of public backlash. Consequently these two apostles were telling church members and the media that both sides needed to focus on civility, and to remember to disagree without being disagreeable. In my view this was slightly disingenuous considering the tactics employed by the church and its allies during the campaign itself.

The church's position is simply this: to call the church and its members bigoted over their opposition to marriage equality somehow infringes on religious freedom. Church leaders are in essence asking that their position be given respectful treatment because it comes from a religious viewpoint, regardless the merits of the position itself. Extremely faulty reasoning here.

Here is the church's double standard:


"We Mormons have the religious freedom to discriminate - and we also have the right to receive subsidies from the income taxes of those very same people who are the targets of our discrimination. When those people get mad and ask their political leaders to take action against us, we will assert the principle of separation of church and state! Heads we win, tails they lose."

There is something suspect about a church which was originally founded on the premise that all other churches are wrong, that it is the only true church on the earth, incorporates 85000 missionaries to knock on people's doors to steal them from other churches, baptises dead people to make sure they become Mormons and they are going to tell me they believe in religious freedom? Don"t think so!!! I have a TBM sister-in-law that reminds me of her religious superiority ever time I see her.

As was the case with me in the past, I'm sure TBM's won't know what to think about this issue anymore. The 15 keep bouncing between x kind of freedom and the "tolerance trap". I was never able to get even a remotely useful answer when I sincerely asked about the time between the two.

Might as well make use of the confusion and point out this website (and quote a number of these wonderful comments) when TBMs start to grill me.

I don't think they have the slightest interest in promoting tolerance for all religions. They simply want to force people to tolerate THEM. They want to be allowed to say and do whatever the heck they feel like, and want the right to scream "Persecution!" if anyone tries to stop them. Plus, it gives the members a right to feel holier than thou - like they are working for a noble cause instead of simply defending the right of the Mormon leadership to run amok among the populace.

Yes, the subtext here is the (very real) threat that all Federal funding, including Pell Grants and federally subsidized loans, will be pulled from the Church operated universities. There are already contingency plans being drawn up for "internal" methods of funding for students.

Hypocritical, IMO. The Church is still allowed its freedom of association (and religion). But it can't expect the American taxpayer to subsidize it.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

BTW, I am a practicing Latter-day Saint who happens to support marriage equality, as well as historical honesty in matters of Church history. I am not a "Church historian," just a historian who has written and published on Mormons in reputable academic presses, and that's all I'll say about that. :)