Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Hi,
It looks as though the traditional beliefs about depression, the paradigmatic metonym for mental illness, such as the serotonin hypothesis, are either severely flawed or out-and-out false. Could the future of treating some forms of mental illness, such as some subtypes of depression and anxiety, involve painless electrical stimulation applied to the skull, in our homes, using a simple, portable device?
http://www.oregonherald.com/news/show-story.cfm?id=384575
After decades of research, all we seem to know is that depression, for instance, is no more of a single illness than fever, or cancer, are. Depression is a symptom with many possible causes. We're still guessing wildly in the dark.
Antidepressants don't seem to do much of anything apart from making us fat and inhibiting the ability to have an orgasm. Meanwhile, pharmaceutical companies such as GlaxoWelcome, have abandoned new research into depression in order to cut costs in difficult economic times. There are no new drug breakthroughs in the pipeline to look forward to, despite the vast human suffering caused by depression.
Maybe most problems would go away if parents would stop abusing their children, some children would stop bullying others, and people would be nice to each other, in general. It's because our world isn't that way (among other reasons, such as genes and bad luck) that we need drugs.
Can't we do better?
Steve
It looks as though the traditional beliefs about depression, the paradigmatic metonym for mental illness, such as the serotonin hypothesis, are either severely flawed or out-and-out false. Could the future of treating some forms of mental illness, such as some subtypes of depression and anxiety, involve painless electrical stimulation applied to the skull, in our homes, using a simple, portable device?
http://www.oregonherald.com/news/show-story.cfm?id=384575
After decades of research, all we seem to know is that depression, for instance, is no more of a single illness than fever, or cancer, are. Depression is a symptom with many possible causes. We're still guessing wildly in the dark.
Antidepressants don't seem to do much of anything apart from making us fat and inhibiting the ability to have an orgasm. Meanwhile, pharmaceutical companies such as GlaxoWelcome, have abandoned new research into depression in order to cut costs in difficult economic times. There are no new drug breakthroughs in the pipeline to look forward to, despite the vast human suffering caused by depression.
Maybe most problems would go away if parents would stop abusing their children, some children would stop bullying others, and people would be nice to each other, in general. It's because our world isn't that way (among other reasons, such as genes and bad luck) that we need drugs.
Can't we do better?
Steve
People should read more Thomas Szasz. He was right.
It took over 10 years for me to figure out my depression was a symptom of the undiagnosed Chronic Fatigue Syndrome that I have and another 10 years to figure out that 1200mg of fish oil twice a day helps my depression and cognitive problems much better than the thousands of dollars worth of antidepressants I had taken over the years.
Mnemonic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1200mg of fish oil
> twice a day helps my depression and cognitive
> problems much better than the thousands of dollars
> worth of antidepressants I had taken over the
> years.
I only take 1000mg per day but lots of EPA in it.
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1200mg of fish oil
> twice a day helps my depression and cognitive
> problems much better than the thousands of dollars
> worth of antidepressants I had taken over the
> years.
I only take 1000mg per day but lots of EPA in it.
What brand of fish oil do you like best?
I've tried several brands including Costco's store brand but lately I've been buying the Nature Made "mercury free" fish oil. I haven't noticed any difference between the brands I've tried.
Omegabrite is expensive but the research on fatty acid profiles is interesting for mental illness. (They provide an interesting mix of fatty acids)
I wouldn't make a sweeping statement about antidepressants like that. Some do not act that way. Wellbutrin does not have the sexual dysfunction side effects that some of the others have. And not everyone will experience those side effects. You also can't say that all antidepressants make you fat. The one I'm on actually makes me a little hyper, so I'm not only less hungry and eat less, but I move around more.
You also can't say that people wouldn't be depressed if we just eliminated abuse. We'd have to eliminate poverty, shame, and organized religion while we're at it. That's hardly a practical solution. Furthermore, some people have depression because of chemical imbalance. Some diseases, like bipolar disorder, can be inherited.
It sounds like they are trying to make a smaller, safer version of electroshock therapy, which can decimate the memory. I've known two people who had depression so badly that they went through ECT. So I wonder how this portable electric current thingy affects other brain functions.
ETA: Not that any of this matters anyway, because even if you have insurance, getting the company to cover more than a half-dozen appointments with some MSW is like jumping through hoops of fire. And if you don't have insurance, good luck getting any mental healthcare at all.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 12:32PM by dogzilla.
You also can't say that people wouldn't be depressed if we just eliminated abuse. We'd have to eliminate poverty, shame, and organized religion while we're at it. That's hardly a practical solution. Furthermore, some people have depression because of chemical imbalance. Some diseases, like bipolar disorder, can be inherited.
It sounds like they are trying to make a smaller, safer version of electroshock therapy, which can decimate the memory. I've known two people who had depression so badly that they went through ECT. So I wonder how this portable electric current thingy affects other brain functions.
ETA: Not that any of this matters anyway, because even if you have insurance, getting the company to cover more than a half-dozen appointments with some MSW is like jumping through hoops of fire. And if you don't have insurance, good luck getting any mental healthcare at all.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 12:32PM by dogzilla.
Hi Dogzilla,
Of course you're right. I don't mean to disparage SSRI's. I'm glad that we have them, but I'm deeply frustrated that after decades of effort, we still don't have a strongly supported theory as to the cause of any subtype of depression or anxiety, never mind effective drugs. Unless we have a valid theory, then drug development amounts to throwing every dart that we can find in the dark, and hoping that one of them will somehow find a dart board and hit the bull's eye. The purpose of a theory is to turn the lights on, give us precise coordinates for the location of the dart board, and allow us to design drugs with the right "acceleration" and "velocity" to hit a bull's eye.
ECT has saved lives, but we don't know how or why it "works." The portable devices that are being used to stimulate the brain are already used by Parkinson's victims. They're not ECT. They just deliver a trickle current to a particular region of the brain to promote action potentials there. It's kind of like a massage for a specific muscle group, applied to the brain. And you don't notice anything. You wear a cap for 20 minutes, two times each day, and after a couple of weeks--if it works--your symptoms will start to abate. But you have to keep the treatment up. That sounds a lot better than taking drugs that have all sorts of side-effects.
Again, I'm not anti-drug--far from it. I'm *extremely* opposed to the insane views of Thomas Szasz and other anti-psychiatrists. If he had had a mental illness himself, he'd have sung a very different tune.
You're right that SSRI's affect people differently. You can't predict ahead of time (i.e. without trying it) how any given SSRI will affect a person. That's what makes trying them so frustrating. It takes two months per trial, at least. They only work for about 40% to 50% of people. They treat symptoms, but we're still left in the lurch with regard to causes. You can "treat" a fever with ice, but what about the underlying bacteriological or viral cause?
Some people are helped, to some degree, by psychotherapy (there are many of these). Others aren't helped at all. It would be helpful to be able to biologically predict a priori whether or not psychotherapy will work for someone, so that we don't waste time and money trying something that won't work. It would also be very helpful if we had some way of assessing the most likely to work, and least likely to work, SSRI's a priori, so that we can treat people efficiently. One possibility on that front is to use EEG. Yaqoob made me aware of that, but there haven't been any large-scale studies to assess whether such EEG assessments are actually valid or just one psychiatrist's gimmick.
We need to eliminate abuse, but it's obviously more complicated than that. We each experience a unique developmental trajectory. Many things can go wrong. If we reduced overall stress on an individual, far fewer things would go wrong. That's why affection and kindness, along with a stimulating environment, during the early developmental years, matter.
Insurance companies obviously don't believe in the concept of mental health, and it's easy to understand why: from a financial perspective, it doesn't pay. You can pay a psychotherapist $150/hour, or buy and read five books on treating depression, for example. Is psychotherapy an efficient investment in your own mental health with a high return on investment? My answer is no. What it really does is make the psychotherapist rich, but people have caught on to the game being played--along with insurance companies--and forego psychotherapy for a drug. Psychotherapists are merely modern witch doctors. Sure, they can help, but at what price, and for how long will their "treatment" "work?" It breeds dependency and a lifetime of financial and emotional slavery.
Best,
Steve
Of course you're right. I don't mean to disparage SSRI's. I'm glad that we have them, but I'm deeply frustrated that after decades of effort, we still don't have a strongly supported theory as to the cause of any subtype of depression or anxiety, never mind effective drugs. Unless we have a valid theory, then drug development amounts to throwing every dart that we can find in the dark, and hoping that one of them will somehow find a dart board and hit the bull's eye. The purpose of a theory is to turn the lights on, give us precise coordinates for the location of the dart board, and allow us to design drugs with the right "acceleration" and "velocity" to hit a bull's eye.
ECT has saved lives, but we don't know how or why it "works." The portable devices that are being used to stimulate the brain are already used by Parkinson's victims. They're not ECT. They just deliver a trickle current to a particular region of the brain to promote action potentials there. It's kind of like a massage for a specific muscle group, applied to the brain. And you don't notice anything. You wear a cap for 20 minutes, two times each day, and after a couple of weeks--if it works--your symptoms will start to abate. But you have to keep the treatment up. That sounds a lot better than taking drugs that have all sorts of side-effects.
Again, I'm not anti-drug--far from it. I'm *extremely* opposed to the insane views of Thomas Szasz and other anti-psychiatrists. If he had had a mental illness himself, he'd have sung a very different tune.
You're right that SSRI's affect people differently. You can't predict ahead of time (i.e. without trying it) how any given SSRI will affect a person. That's what makes trying them so frustrating. It takes two months per trial, at least. They only work for about 40% to 50% of people. They treat symptoms, but we're still left in the lurch with regard to causes. You can "treat" a fever with ice, but what about the underlying bacteriological or viral cause?
Some people are helped, to some degree, by psychotherapy (there are many of these). Others aren't helped at all. It would be helpful to be able to biologically predict a priori whether or not psychotherapy will work for someone, so that we don't waste time and money trying something that won't work. It would also be very helpful if we had some way of assessing the most likely to work, and least likely to work, SSRI's a priori, so that we can treat people efficiently. One possibility on that front is to use EEG. Yaqoob made me aware of that, but there haven't been any large-scale studies to assess whether such EEG assessments are actually valid or just one psychiatrist's gimmick.
We need to eliminate abuse, but it's obviously more complicated than that. We each experience a unique developmental trajectory. Many things can go wrong. If we reduced overall stress on an individual, far fewer things would go wrong. That's why affection and kindness, along with a stimulating environment, during the early developmental years, matter.
Insurance companies obviously don't believe in the concept of mental health, and it's easy to understand why: from a financial perspective, it doesn't pay. You can pay a psychotherapist $150/hour, or buy and read five books on treating depression, for example. Is psychotherapy an efficient investment in your own mental health with a high return on investment? My answer is no. What it really does is make the psychotherapist rich, but people have caught on to the game being played--along with insurance companies--and forego psychotherapy for a drug. Psychotherapists are merely modern witch doctors. Sure, they can help, but at what price, and for how long will their "treatment" "work?" It breeds dependency and a lifetime of financial and emotional slavery.
Best,
Steve
Aside from the first post full of misinformation, this one is too. Deep brain stimulation used by Parkinson's patients is nothing whatsoever like wearing a cap for 20 minutes sporadically.
I mean, the article covers the difference! Why on earth would you compare transcranial magnetic stimulation with deep brain stimulation???
Gawd I hate when people post medical misinformation, it's very dangerous. But some people have FEELINGS they must share, damn the facts...
I mean, the article covers the difference! Why on earth would you compare transcranial magnetic stimulation with deep brain stimulation???
Gawd I hate when people post medical misinformation, it's very dangerous. But some people have FEELINGS they must share, damn the facts...
I've been reading, recently, about the mineral magnesium and its possible affects of helping those with depression, pms, muscle cramps, and other ailments. It's worth looking into.
People who struggle with depression owe it to themselves to conduct some self-experimentation.
When they get tired of the fatness & anti-orgasmicness of pharmeceuticals, begin to explore other forms of treatment:
Natural antidepressants:
Exercise (my personal fave but as I get older, etc and as my tolerance builds, I find it's hard to get as much exercise as my mind needs to get those endorphins to stick around)
Sunshine /vitamin D supplements (plus an avocado or some healthy fat to make the D soluble)
Gardening. Digging in the dirt is therapeutic. Natural. Human connection with the earth as life was intended.
Sex
Family, friends, supportive network of caring, genuine people
Exhiliration: climbing, jumping, falling safely; roller coasters, acrobatics, gymnastics (hey that's a combination of exercise & exhiliration. Again, my favorite.)
When they get tired of the fatness & anti-orgasmicness of pharmeceuticals, begin to explore other forms of treatment:
Natural antidepressants:
Exercise (my personal fave but as I get older, etc and as my tolerance builds, I find it's hard to get as much exercise as my mind needs to get those endorphins to stick around)
Sunshine /vitamin D supplements (plus an avocado or some healthy fat to make the D soluble)
Gardening. Digging in the dirt is therapeutic. Natural. Human connection with the earth as life was intended.
Sex
Family, friends, supportive network of caring, genuine people
Exhiliration: climbing, jumping, falling safely; roller coasters, acrobatics, gymnastics (hey that's a combination of exercise & exhiliration. Again, my favorite.)
More importantly, the CAUSES of depression need to be identified & uprooted.
Rates of depression are high in the city & indoor, sedentary work environments/lifestyles.
Rates of depression are low in rural, active occupations & lifestyles.
I personally look forward to our 1st-world society imploding so we may return to a simpler, more natural way of life. No longer will we chase after the almighty dollar while sacrificing our health, happiness, and well-being. Let happiness & well-being be the very focus of our lives.
Rates of depression are high in the city & indoor, sedentary work environments/lifestyles.
Rates of depression are low in rural, active occupations & lifestyles.
I personally look forward to our 1st-world society imploding so we may return to a simpler, more natural way of life. No longer will we chase after the almighty dollar while sacrificing our health, happiness, and well-being. Let happiness & well-being be the very focus of our lives.
While exercise, outdoor activity, etc. can be very helpful, please don't forget that PTSD, mTBI, and other brain injuries often produce depression and other mental illness that needs medical attention.
My experiences in Iraq changed me. I attribute some of the more severe psychological problems I'm stuck with to head injury and persistent exposure to some horrific stuff.
All those alternative things help, but the #1 thing that has made my life liveable was a big handful of drugs that I take every day. Maybe someday I'll be able to get off them, but for now, I trust the medicine. If others are able to get by without, that's awesome and really gives me some hope for myself.
Cheers
My experiences in Iraq changed me. I attribute some of the more severe psychological problems I'm stuck with to head injury and persistent exposure to some horrific stuff.
All those alternative things help, but the #1 thing that has made my life liveable was a big handful of drugs that I take every day. Maybe someday I'll be able to get off them, but for now, I trust the medicine. If others are able to get by without, that's awesome and really gives me some hope for myself.
Cheers
Soldier,
There's no doubt that traumatic head injuries can cause all kinds of problems, and I'm very glad that you've got drugs that help you. I'd love to hear more about the details of what happened, how that affected you, which drugs you're taking, and how they've improved things--along with side-effects.
Best Wishes,
Steve
There's no doubt that traumatic head injuries can cause all kinds of problems, and I'm very glad that you've got drugs that help you. I'd love to hear more about the details of what happened, how that affected you, which drugs you're taking, and how they've improved things--along with side-effects.
Best Wishes,
Steve
Living with PTSD isn't easy, I don't have it from war, but nonetheless it isn't fun. I was put on a medication that stabilized my anxiety and panic attacks, but after a while I was depressed and demotivated. So now it is a choice between depression, anxiety, or try for a chemical cocktail that helps both, ugh.
As is, after therapy I am doing better and can navigate my moods better without meds, but crippling panic still comes around every so often. I wish there was an easy answer.
As is, after therapy I am doing better and can navigate my moods better without meds, but crippling panic still comes around every so often. I wish there was an easy answer.
You might investigate panic attack response to higher ratio of fatty acids in the fish oil. The ratio of fatty acids (not just amount of fatty acids) has been implicated in decreasing panic attacks. Omegabrite is one that has a higher ratio.
Once I got over my Clinical Depression I was able to think clearly and take action to get out
Let me repeat for clarity.
I take an antidepressant. It has neither made me gain weight, nor caused any sexual problems. In fact, I'm not having ONE SINGLE SIDE EFFECT. Not one.
Pharmaceuticals aren't always The Devil Incarnate™.
Upon preview, also, what Soldier said.
I will concede that regular exercise helps a lot as well. Endorphins are your friends.
I take an antidepressant. It has neither made me gain weight, nor caused any sexual problems. In fact, I'm not having ONE SINGLE SIDE EFFECT. Not one.
Pharmaceuticals aren't always The Devil Incarnate™.
Upon preview, also, what Soldier said.
I will concede that regular exercise helps a lot as well. Endorphins are your friends.
Dogzilla,
Which SSRI are you on?
Steve
Which SSRI are you on?
Steve
I womder if dogzolla is talking about Viibryd?
My doc had me try Viibryd because it doesn't cause weight gain or sexual side effects. There are however gastrointestinal side effects that others say are only temporary, but I personally couldn't get myself to push through the third week.
My doc had me try Viibryd because it doesn't cause weight gain or sexual side effects. There are however gastrointestinal side effects that others say are only temporary, but I personally couldn't get myself to push through the third week.
*wonder
*dogzilla
*dogzilla
For me, my depression is caused by systemic candida which was caused by 5 massive mercury fillings the student dentist poisoned me with 13 yrs ago. If you have mercury fillings (the silver metal ones are 50% mercury) you will have systemic candida. Candida (yeast or a fungus) releases 79 toxins.
The next year after the 5 huge fillings, I had all my fillings replaced with the white ones. All that does though is stop further mercury exposure. Once mercury is in your system, it is yours for a long long time. I was healthy until the dental system destroyed my health, my marriage and my happiness. I have had chronic fatigue, brain fog, depression, anxiety, head pain, lethargy, some temporary fibromyalgia. The chronic fatigue has somewhat gone but the brain fog and head pain and depression is my daily friend.
As long as you have mercury in your system (a neurotoxin) you will have systemic yeast. To kill the yeast is very very difficult as it adapts to your antifungals. You need to cycle them.
The baby boom generation has been silently poisoned by mercury amalgam fillings by highly paid professionals (dentists) There is no safe exposure to mercury. Mercury will destroy every cell it touches. It accumulates in your nervous system. It has been banned in several European countries. It is more toxic than lead.
The next year after the 5 huge fillings, I had all my fillings replaced with the white ones. All that does though is stop further mercury exposure. Once mercury is in your system, it is yours for a long long time. I was healthy until the dental system destroyed my health, my marriage and my happiness. I have had chronic fatigue, brain fog, depression, anxiety, head pain, lethargy, some temporary fibromyalgia. The chronic fatigue has somewhat gone but the brain fog and head pain and depression is my daily friend.
As long as you have mercury in your system (a neurotoxin) you will have systemic yeast. To kill the yeast is very very difficult as it adapts to your antifungals. You need to cycle them.
The baby boom generation has been silently poisoned by mercury amalgam fillings by highly paid professionals (dentists) There is no safe exposure to mercury. Mercury will destroy every cell it touches. It accumulates in your nervous system. It has been banned in several European countries. It is more toxic than lead.
I found out my depression is linked to my Celiac Disease. Did you know that the majority of the seratonin in your body isn't in your brain, it's in your digestive tract? When you think about it, that would explain why a lot of people tend to overeat when they're sad or depressed.
My worst Celiac symptoms are depression related. Most Celiacs don't absorb vitamins and minerals well because of damage to the villi in their intestines, which only compounds the problem.
I am not anti-medicine at all, and I get somewhat frustrated with people who are. Tom Cruise really pissed me off with his anti-psychology, anti-meds rant. The medicine doesn't work great for everyone, but for those it does work for (including me), it can be a life saver. You wouldn't tell someone with high blood pressure not to take medicine to control their blood pressure or tell a diabetic to stop taking insulin. I have messed up seratonin levels and the medicine helps me correct that.
My worst Celiac symptoms are depression related. Most Celiacs don't absorb vitamins and minerals well because of damage to the villi in their intestines, which only compounds the problem.
I am not anti-medicine at all, and I get somewhat frustrated with people who are. Tom Cruise really pissed me off with his anti-psychology, anti-meds rant. The medicine doesn't work great for everyone, but for those it does work for (including me), it can be a life saver. You wouldn't tell someone with high blood pressure not to take medicine to control their blood pressure or tell a diabetic to stop taking insulin. I have messed up seratonin levels and the medicine helps me correct that.
for me it was simple
bag Mormonism
shitty guilty feelings stopped
bag Mormonism
shitty guilty feelings stopped
Hello soldier,
I am so sorry to hear of your experiences, your injury and your ongoing problemss. I just wanted to let you know I send my love and support, as I do to all of you who are suffering.
I am on a medication for anxiety and I wouldn't think of going off it. It makes my days normal and my life good, unmarred by the awful anxiety I experienced without it. Yes I also use other things, meditation, relaxation methods, exercise, keep my life as stress free as possible , eat a good diet etc. I am all for natural substances and treatments (as is my doctor) , but I KNOW and my doctor knows what is best for me in my circumstances.
Each case, including mine, must be judged on its own individual need. I, for one, am grateful for all the things that help me!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 09:39PM by fluhist.
I am so sorry to hear of your experiences, your injury and your ongoing problemss. I just wanted to let you know I send my love and support, as I do to all of you who are suffering.
I am on a medication for anxiety and I wouldn't think of going off it. It makes my days normal and my life good, unmarred by the awful anxiety I experienced without it. Yes I also use other things, meditation, relaxation methods, exercise, keep my life as stress free as possible , eat a good diet etc. I am all for natural substances and treatments (as is my doctor) , but I KNOW and my doctor knows what is best for me in my circumstances.
Each case, including mine, must be judged on its own individual need. I, for one, am grateful for all the things that help me!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 09:39PM by fluhist.
This thread is a mess. Let's just preface the whole thing with "if you are seeking help for a mental illness, please don't read this thread." The speculation could hurt someone.
The truth is, millions of people have been helped overcome their depression with anti-depressants. Individual results vary widely, but generally speaking, drugs can help deeply depressed get past a bad episode and back to feeling hopeful about living.
I'm a remodeling contractor now, but I was in private practice as a therapist for over 20 years. A significant percentage of patients presenting at my office suffered from depression, although it wasn't their core complaint all the time. Teaming up with their physicians, I monitored peoples' reactions to psychoactive meds of all kinds, and anti-depressants were effective in well over half the people who I saw use them.
I like the fact that this topic has come up. It's fair game. If you're feeling down, it's important to get good information about what is going on with you and take effective action, especially if you feel iffy about living. Drugs may help. Susie--? Please see the sticky about depression and feeling suicidal.
The truth is, millions of people have been helped overcome their depression with anti-depressants. Individual results vary widely, but generally speaking, drugs can help deeply depressed get past a bad episode and back to feeling hopeful about living.
I'm a remodeling contractor now, but I was in private practice as a therapist for over 20 years. A significant percentage of patients presenting at my office suffered from depression, although it wasn't their core complaint all the time. Teaming up with their physicians, I monitored peoples' reactions to psychoactive meds of all kinds, and anti-depressants were effective in well over half the people who I saw use them.
I like the fact that this topic has come up. It's fair game. If you're feeling down, it's important to get good information about what is going on with you and take effective action, especially if you feel iffy about living. Drugs may help. Susie--? Please see the sticky about depression and feeling suicidal.