I've been out of the church since 2003. My son is now 11 years old, and he's involved with an LDS-run scouting troop. I've been deputized as the assistant scout leader (commissioner) along with a fairly liberal TBM who's calling is to lead the group. He's been incredibly lenient in his dealings with meetings. We have no opening prayers, and discussions about 2nd class requirements regarding drug abuse and such always retain the caveot about using alcohol "responsibly".

I'm a former eagle scout. I discuss things like the scouting oath's repudiation of gays with my son. Everything seems to be going fine, and yet I still have this nagging doubt in my mind that I'm somehow betraying the cause of truth.

I love 95% of scouting, but I loathe the 5% of mormon-baby-boomer-induced bigotry that goes along with it.

Should I keep my shoulder to the wheel, and be a force of change, or should I deny my son the incredible experiences that he would otherwise have?

I live in a fairly liberal neighborhood of Salt Lake; the place where Mormons put up signs of support for Obama and put Equality Utah bumper stickers on their cars. I really like the direction of the community. Should I stick my neck out to protest that 5%, or should I keep the boulder rolling down the mountain for the sake of my son and the other boys in our troop?

The problem with a liberal Mormon program is that the church is by nature conservative. If a more conservative bishop or SP comes to power the winds might change for your scouting group. It's great to see that you think much the same as your neighbors, but do remember that you are playing with fire when it comes to the church. Their main underlying goal is to "reactivate" or "reinstate" you and your son and to send him out as a missionary. They want your tithing and your time. Don't give it to them.

There are a lot of civic scouting groups (such as through the public school system in a lot of places) and I know there are a few non-Mormon churches in SLC that offer scouting in a similar fashion, but without the pesky "bretheren" overseeing everything. I think you and your son will see a positive difference.

And essentially an atheist (this was the 60's, a more liberal time, and I suspect I would've been denied the award nowadays).

I say go ahead, and I hope you can be an advocate for change (BTW, I'm not an atheist these days, just an agnostic who used to have Christian tendencies). The Boy Scouts' view of gays is an abomination, but they're not the only ones...

There are far more important elements of the LDS Church I criticize than Scouting...

So long as you don't enable or cover up for any pedophiles (and there are a number of those, no doubt), you'll get no grief from me...

Thanks SLC, I'm inclined to agree. I'm glad the city didn't stupidly endorse changing the cab rules too. :-)

I am an Eagle scout and have been a scout leader for all of my adult life (in one form or another), at least until two years ago. As an atheist I am not allowed.

My oldest turns 18 in the fall, and it looks like he will not get his Eagle (would be 3rd generation). He was always a fantastic scout, and was even SPL for an 85 boy troop at 14, and was the OA chapter chief at 15. It seems he has some moral objections to affiliating with them further.

While I have all the respect in the world for Lord Baden-Powell's vision, the religious right has forever soiled what scouting truly stands for in the U.S. Look at the type of people that the executive level attracts. The good-old-boy network, etc, and full of passive-aggressive bullies. Spend some time at your council with the people, and you will soon find, that very few of them live by the principles that are found in the scout oath and law. And then all the little power mongers, who now get to be in charge of something and don't get the opportunity any where else.

My advice is, if you must do scouting, get involved with a more traditional unit. The mormon division of units to match priesthood quorum completely defeats any hope of leadership opportunity being offered the boys.

There is nothing more magical than a boy lead troop. Where the adults don't pack the equipment trailer, but the quartermaster (scout) orchestrates the boys in doing it. Where the SPL plans the meetings, and the majority is implemented by the boys, with the Scoutmaster only having an announcement period near the beginning if needed, and the scoutmaster's minute to close it when it is done.

If you are going to be a leader, go to the district roundtable training meetings and participate (every month). It is difficult business to teach boys to find it within themselves to step up and to take charge and lead. It is even harder to let them do it, and to let them make mistakes along the way (only stopping if a dangerous situation would arise).

Good luck.

My experience would have me look for a Methodist sponsored troop in the area. All the Methodist troops I've seen are well run and not at all tangled in the church, like LDS units are. If your son is not attending church and is not ordained a deacon at 12, his leadership roles will be limited and he'll be left out of the loop by announcements that are made only on Sunday. (And, I say that as a scoutmaster who has had and currently has non-LDS boys in an LDS troop. It is more/extra work for me and I don't know many scoutmasters willing to make the extra effort.)

We were at the same scout camp last summer as a HUGE troop from Sandy/SouthJordan. They were non-denominational, but I think they met in a Methodist building. I can't remember their troop number, but I can find out. That may be a little far away, but they had 50+ boys at camp and the leaders said that they draw from all over the valley.

The Lutherans also charter good units. I have been a Webelos leader, a scoutmaster, and a unit commissioner for several different Lutheran troops. Always a good experience.

We did participate in a Presbyterian den a few years ago. The problem is that my son's social group at school isn't included in that troop. A good portion of scouting involves camaraderie with peers. His friends from elementary school are in the LDS troop, which includes two other non-mormons, so he's not the anomaly of the group.

Furthermore, as I've distanced myself from The Church, I've come to the realization that people in The Church are a diverse lot. I cannot castigate the whole for the spittle that leaves the mouthes of a few leaders. The incorporated Church does not speak for the members.

Additionally, the "non-mormon" troop had some of the same religious hangups that any LDS troop has. It seemed to be no better in that regard. I distinctly remember a court of honor at which the same religo-babble was spouted at us in such a way that it was indistinguishable from any vanilla Mormon meeting.

I suppose my _real_ question is whether or not scouting itself is compatible with a post-religious view. On its face, it is not, but my love of scouting's merits compels me to believe that I can salvage the good parts (of which there are plenty) and throw off the chaff (of which there is little).

My worst memories of scouting are of BYU camps at which we were led to lie in order to get ten merit badges in a week. My best memory of scouting is the 5-day hike to climb King's Peak and yet failing to earn the hiking merit badge because we only managed 46 miles instead of the 50 required. Integrity, and honesty trump iron-on patches -- regardless the affiliation.

Will scouting change? I certainly cannot wait for that at this point, but I believe I can push it a bit.

I have posted on this forum my concerns regarding practically all scout deaths being LDS scouts, no matter what state they lived in.

In discussions on other forums with scouting leaders, they confirmed some of my concerns and I'll pass this on to you. The biggest problem, safetywise, about the LDS troups is that the leaders are not really volunteers. They are "called" and you know what that means--it's God's will, they are unfaithful if they say no. So you end up with leadership that is just going through the motions. Phoning it in, so to speak. Kids are not safe in the wilderness with leaders who really don't want to be there, or don't want to work with boys.

For that reason alone (all though you list some good ones), I would make sure that all the scout leaders are true volunteers (and they've passed criminal background checks re sexual offenses)

Anagrammy

All scout leaders have to go through background checks and youth safety training. I know that this is a new thing, but I hope that it allays your concerns. You can go through the training yourself at http://olc.scouting.org/ It has to be certified by the district after you do it. Even those "called" to be scout leaders have to do it.