This is a continuation of the thread that I started with the Carl Sagan quote:

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

I said, in reference to the 'state of mind' that one can reach in which this reality appears to be of an illusionary nature:

"But evidently this 'delusion' has some explainable and predictable elements to it that we might as well not delude ourselves about."

Hello said,

"Don't know what it's called, but yoga gets there."

"As the Mormons have demonstrated, you can parse the false, but it remains false. That is, you can analyze the universe with an eye to improving your existence, but you will just make yourself comfortable in a falsehood. You will remain bound."

"Yes, we play the game with grace, but as I see it, your comment could well have been said by a hamster (with a "positive attitude") on an exercise wheel."

"When the hamster finally gets tired of running on the wheel (and he will), then he'll be ready to explore his extra-cage options vis a vis "reality"."

Maybe we are just hamsters on a wheel, and this entire existence is of an illusionary nature. But I think the quote still holds true. If the nature of this reality is an illusion, and we with our feeble minds are all caught up in it, than understanding that, would be part of grasping the universe as it really is. The problem comes when you try to prove it. Other than personal insights, it is pretty much a useless insight in the 'real' world.

Besides, its not like you can simply step out of the wheel and into the 'real reality' for good. (at least not in this life) These realizations come from meditating in the here and now of this existence, so, illusionary or not, where we are now, is still part of some larger whole.

So to me, grasping the universe as it really is, means to do our best to understand our existence based on what we do know, and maybe even our own insights, and to be honest with ourselves. Mormonism is a fine example of this. When we are honest with ourselves, we find that we are duping ourselves. It may make some people happy, but it's still false. Did I step out of Mormonism only to find myself in another 'cage'? I sometimes think that. Where's the keys to this cage?

Think of the contradiction in what you've just requested. If you live in an illusion, then the "you" who accepts the (illusionary) status quo must also be an illusion. And what kind of proof would that illusory you accept? If in a dream, some dream figure told the 'dream you' that all your experience was only a dream, is there any way the dream-figure you would accept this?

In a dream (and people spend maybe a third of their lives in a dream state), do you ever try to "grasp the universe as it is"? The dreamworld universe, that is. And if you did, would you ever be successful...while still remaining a figure in the dream? Does that dream persona even exist as a stable individual entity?

Many spiritual traditions use this analogy about the "waking dream" of daily life. We are NOT what we take ourselves to be: find out who is the Dreamer of it all, the one who is constantly and unphasingly aware, despite changing sensations, emotions, thoughts--Know Thyself.

And BTW, you were in this cage even while you were in mormonism. Every ego is. The good news is...the cage is an illusion, too.

I've heard this tripe before. It's nothing but circular logic serving the sole purpose of intellectual masturbation.

Is it threatening? (It does challenge everyone's assumption of who they are.)
Is it asking for your money or your vote?
Is it suggesting that you behave antisocially or bigotedly?
Is it saying we should stop helping people who are suffering? (the personas may not be 'real,' but the minds who believe that they are these personas ARE real and need compassion, and this is the basis of unconditional love and service in all the liberatory spiritual traditions)

On what basis do you dismiss it as tripe? (buddy, tripe, masturbation are all irritated put-downs...)

Because for a period of time I subscribed to this viewpoint--and it only led to manipulation.

"The good news is...the cage is an illusion, too"

Then nothing exists, ergo; why live?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2011 09:59PM by Strykary.

So you'd prefer not thinking about it because when you do you become nihilistically pessimistic? Sounds to me like you're dependant upon something or someone other than yourself to give meaning and purpose to your life.

Give it some time. Go to a university. I discovered so many new vistas there (including Vedanta in a freshman philosophy course). Brain circuity doesn't develop fully until age 30. Young people often have on-target intuitions, but they don't have a full deck yet.

Good job. I see your deflector shields are set to 100%



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2011 10:13PM by Strykary.

Personally, I don't have a problem with intellectual masturbation.

What is the purpose of discussing circular topics?

If you consider something from different angles and become objective about your own (subjective) viewpoint, then the "circle" becomes a spiral. And spirals is what growth is all about. Just think of how a subject, say U.S. history, is treated differently at each stage of education--elementary, junior high, senior high, and on into university and graduate school. Hardly circular.

But if you find yourself thinking circularly, always having the same been-there-done-that reactions, it's a good indication that you're sticking to the same level of awareness. The subject seems to grow when YOU grow.

It might be intellectual masturbation, but I still find the subject fascinating.

Using the analogy of being in a dream and being unable to discern 'reality' because we are ourselves part of the illusion, how is your claim to be able to 'know thyself' any different?

In fact, I used to purposely lucid dream often. While in a lucid dreaming state, you are fully aware that you are in a dream world. Sagan is skeptical of the existence of lucid dreams, but I've been there. But in that illusion, once you are aware that it is just a dream, you can wake yourself up, if you choose. I've yet to see anyone pop out of existence in the 'real world' once they realized its all an illusion.

COM:

"I've yet to see anyone pop out of existence in the 'real world' once they realized its all an illusion."

I have seen this.

just like masturbation is good for your body, but not in excess and not in place of real sex.

Pondering the nature of illusion is exactly what we should have been doing instead of all those church jobs, temple attendance, reading absolutely useless Book of Moron, D&C, Pearl blah blah. Instead of indoctrination, meditation.

It is possible to awaken to a realization that there are two of you inside your head and to acknowledge the possibility that one of them is not real. Which one? And maybe both are not real.

What could be more helpful than to hone your thinking about what is real? That will bounce you right out of any cult. Imagine the reaction of someone who has completed serious study about the nature of existence being told that they must rid themselves of evil spirits by using an expensive machine. And celebrities are members (Tom Cruise--and I'm a Scientologist). You wouldn't fall for the psychological ploys that the American God of Marketing uses on TV watchers every day. It would be like a vaccination against manipulation.

Which is why I no longer count myself as a God-believer but still feel like I'm more spiritual and a better person than when I was a Christian. Go figure.

Anagrammy

This is a very sore subject for me because I followed a similar thought pattern at one point. I allowed someone to manipulate me 'in the name of objectivism and mental growth.'

I don't trust this messenger is all.

It is usually not the message, or the idea or philosophy that manipulates. You are wise to be skeptical.

Fine thread, chainsofmind. My brain hurts a lot right now, so I'll have to check back in tomorrow.

I find it a good practice to be objective of the subjective self, or to observe the observer. This is healthy because it allows one to be aware of their bias's. It is extremely beneficial to oneself to be skeptical of your 'self', to be honest with your 'self', to be aware of your delusions. This type of thinking is exactly what lead me out of Mormonism.

I agree that we are not necessarily the 'self' that we think we are. But with all that, no matter how many levels of observing the observer you manage to elevate yourself to, no matter how well you can turn off your internal dialog and just observe, you would still be part of this 'illusion'. And, at least for me, that is part of "grasp(ing) the universe as it really is".

COM:

"I agree that we are not necessarily the 'self' that we think we are. But with all that, no matter how many levels of observing the observer you manage to elevate yourself to, no matter how well you can turn off your internal dialog and just observe, you would still be part of this 'illusion'. And, at least for me, that is part of "grasp(ing) the universe as it really is"."

Your post above may be true for you, but it is not true for me.

I too see a difference between illusion and delusion. In the other thread, I stated that this consensus universe we are currently operating in is a delusion (not illusion). That is, it is something that is believed to be true, but is actually false.

As for "proving it", I think that I cannot. The "proof" would be beyond the verbal, beyond the intellectual, beyond the mental. There is no proof, within the mind. The mind is a delusion.

Beyond. Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi swaha

But, for those willing to look, proof can be found.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2011 06:55PM by hello.

Please see the edit to my reply above.

Yes, the delusion (nb, not illusion) can be comprehended. I hesitate to use the word, "transcend", because I don't see anything to transcend. To be understood, yes. All One.

Is that clear enough, or would you like an essay? Or a tek?

"Scholars" and pedants of advaita vedanta have pored over these topics ad infinitum, and have written (and argued) vastly about them. I cannot add to their words. I experience.

Teks are available, representing differing degrees of will and effort on the part of the individual. As I hinted at in the other thread, my dharma is raja yoga, specifically kundalini kriya yog. Your dharma may be different.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2011 07:32PM by hello.

"One night, Zhuangzi dreamed of being a butterfly — a happy butterfly, showing off and doing things as he pleased, unaware of being Zhuangzi. Suddenly he awoke, drowsily, Zhuangzi again. And he could not tell whether it was Zhuangzi who had dreamt the butterfly or the butterfly dreaming Zhuangzi. But there must be some difference between them! This is called 'the transformation of things."

"During our dreams we do not know we are dreaming. We may even dream of interpreting a dream. Only on waking do we know it was a dream. Only after the great awakening will we realize that this is the great dream. And yet fools think they are awake, presuming to know that they are rulers or herdsmen. How dense! You and Confucius are both dreaming, and I who say you are a dream am also a dream. Such is my tale. It will probably be called preposterous, but after ten thousand generations there may be a great sage who will be able to explain it, a trivial interval equivalent to the passage from morning to night."

YOU SEE, YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST, THE LAST OR THE ONLY ONE. YOU ARE RIGHT TO QUESTION EVERYTHING. NEVER STOP QUESTIONING BUT ACCEPT THAT YOU MAY NEVER FIND THE ANSWER. AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. LIFE IS STILL WORTH LIVING. :)

...in his novel, "Galapagos," that the curse of human beings is our large brains. No matter how good things might be, we can always imagine something better, so we're in a constant state of dissatisfaction. In a way, that's like the Buddhist belief that our problem is desire.

We have ways to make ourselves crazy. Is it all just a dream? A dream inside a dream inside a dream inside a dream...? Is my reality not real? Should I be trying to break through to the real reality?

Meh.

All I can do is try make whatever reality I'm in work for me. What can I do with what I have? How can I find contentment? Well, one way I get closer to contentment is to not worry about things I can't do anything about.

I lucid dream all the time. I take control of what is happening and shape things the way I want. I am aware that I'm dreaming. Do I worry about the people or events that I was dreaming about, when I'm awake. Not in the slightest.

As for this life, I have not witnessed anything unexplainable that would lead me to question reality as I see it.

I also think that if there is an afterlife, I will awake in it, fully aware of what the reality I just experienced was, and will I be concerned about the people or events experienced...again I don't think so.

The "me" when I am dreaming is nothing like the "me" in my current reality. When I am dead, if there is a "me" in the afterlife, it will be nothing like what I am now.

Bottom line for me is: until something unexplainable happens in my current reality I should just accept it as presented and be me.

LeBerge, probably the leading authority on lucid dreaming (Stanford PhD. in it, founder of the Lucidity Institute research institution, many books), related a very interesting lucid experience, in an interview in the Thinking Allowed series. He seems to be as comfortable in the lucid state as he is in the waking state.

But in one particular lucid dream he decided to go against his habits, with a remarkable result. In the dream, he was driving down a highway in a sports car when he saw a beautiful woman. Of course many view a lucid dream as a playground for pursuing their desires (is it astral plane awareness?), but here LeBerge decided not to explore this dream phenomenon, and suddenly he found his car taking off from the highway like a plane. Up in the sky, he found that all (dream) forms themselves were outshined by an increasing brightness and sense of bliss. In other words, this turned into the lucid equivalent of mystical transcendence...from the unreality of the shifting images (not so different from the constant change of the waking world) to the unchanging reality of formless consciousness--Consciousness Without an Object.

That's the dissolution of the ego within a dream, signified by weightlessness--flying and shapes. Which I've only experienced twice so far...

I don't think it's anything mystical--just letting your head take over on autopilot.

I apologize for my previous animosity, Richard Foxe. This subject is still quite tender for me, as I was misled by someone who holds views similar to yours.

---- hello wrote

"I've yet to see anyone pop out of existence in the 'real world' once they realized its all an illusion."

I have seen this."

I've seen Jesus, he said all world religions are false. ;)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2011 07:47PM by Strykary.

Strikary:

"I've seen Jesus, he said all world religions are false. ;)"

++ good !

"Grasping the universe as it really is" is off base for a deeper reason: we actually surround ourselves with an imaginative environment that we want, in order to protect the image of ourselves that we have made. That environment includes everything that we see or register through our senses. In fact, the image we have of ourselves is itself part of the environment we've dreamed up. (This is obvious in night dreams, where our 'abilities' are limited by our presumptions about the dreamworld we've constructed. For example, we can't normally put our dream hand through a dream rock because of our everyday assumptions about physical hands and rocks, here recreated in the dream.)

The problem with "grasping the universe" is that this universe is also dreamed up (not solipsistically but collectively, although registered individually)...and dreamed up in order to support the image we have of ourselves. Every "thing" we see in the world or space serves to confirm our identity as we see it. And that identity is part of the dream scenario as well. We believe that we are part of where we think we are. And so--it's all delusion.

mormons and masonary, and nazism is the enemies in my dreams.

Levite.

Replace 'the universe' with 'life' in the Sagan quote. Of course we can go on forever discussing what is 'real' and what the true nature of our universe and existence is, but it all kind of takes away from the meaning of the quote in its original context, It is a pro-skepticism quote, and that is how I intended it as well. If you applied it to Mormonism, than Mormonism is the delusion, and we are all here on this forum because we choose (more or less) to see life how it really is and choose not to persist in the Mormon delusion.