Why is anything virtuous in Mormonism? Obedience a virtue? Tithing virtuous? Believing in something only because you feel good about it? I mean, come on.

Yeah, thinking along those same lines. They had to try to make us feel really speshul because we could believe total bullschit that outsiders weren't speshuul enough to believe. And that gave us mega extra points with the big guy in the sky.

I think you've asked a fair and interesting question. Obviously no one is forcing you (or me) to "believe" in anything. You specifically ask if it is "virtuous" to believe in the unknowable. Different people will answer that one way or another, as you already know. If you want to go through life only believing what you can see, touch, or feel, you can, and you can achieve success in life and perhaps some measure of happiness. My opinion is that if you believe only in what is readily provable, and DIS-believe in ANYthing else you will live a life of anxious hopelessness. Now don't get mad, you wanted people to give their opinions, I just gave my OPINION.

So much in our life is just not known yet, and in our lifetimes will not be known or understood. In many lifetimes, perhaps forever, some things will not be able to be known. Many of you wonder if consciousness exists after death. There is (at present) no way to know for sure, I would argue there is some evidence that supports the belief in consciousness after death. But many here simply do not want to consider that. Note I said "consider". Even if decent evidence comes to light suggesting strongly this is the case, many here do NOT WANT TO HEAR IT.

I conclude that choosing to NOT believe in anything that you can't positively verify is a handicap. It robs you of acceptance of some things that would make you happier here. More at peace. Because there are some things that are true that we can't prove yet. But they're still real, still "true".

In general, if you remain in this condition, you'll alienate most of the people around you who DO believe in things that you would say are not provable. Maybe that is OK with you.

A middle ground is where I'm at. I don't believe in believing in stuff that we can be pretty darn sure is false. Like the Book of Mormon. Or the calling of Joseph Smith as a prophet. Hard evidence argues against those being "true". So there is no virtue in believing in that. Ditto for many other things...the flood, the parting of the Red Sea, etc.

But there are some things safely beyond our present ability to prove. Life after death. Living more than one life. Stuff like that. Some people CHOOSE to believe in it. What does it do for them? You wanted to know if they possess a "virtue" for believing in that. I'd say probably yes. They are humble enough to admit they don't know everything, they are willing to accept some things they can't prove, and they derive a world view from believing in it that may benefit mankind. They believe in serving their fellow man because of that belief in an unknowable thing.

This is really going to go over like a ton of bricks here!....

I strongly disagree with your claim that nobody is forcing you to believe. I was born in a Mormon family and forced to believe. When I stopped believing at age twelve I was punished and scorned. I was called a follower of the devil by my own parents. I had nightmares of demonic possession and torture. My daily life was a living hell. All because I didn't believe in Mormonism.

+1

I was forced to believe, through years of brainwashing and indoctrination. I was forced to believe in God, in Jesus, and in the whole of Mormon Doctrine. Not believing was never presented to me as an option. Anyone who insists that I had a choice in the matter simply doesn't understand what it's like to be BIC and raised by parents who refuse to accept anything less than full activity and unquestioning belief.

Faith is not a virtue. Faith is the result of embracing ignorance in an attempt to avoid fear of the unknown. And sometimes, maybe often, faith is the result of years of abusive indoctrination.

I accept that we don't know everything. But that doesn't mean I have to make up stories about imaginary friends, and then choose to believe that they're real. While it might be understandable to choose to lie to yourself because it makes you feel better, it's certainly not virtuous. And believing that it is, is just one more self-soothing lie.

@elciz, you got it partially right. I would say that virtue comes not from believing in the unknowable, but rather from truly accepting that people have the right to believe in the unknowable AND afford others that same right to believe or disbelieve in the unknowable too, accepting them either way without reservation or judgement.

Now, if something is indeed knowable or highly probable and one chooses willful ignorance instead, then it isn't faith or virtuous. It is delusion.

I completely disagree with some of your statements here. You state that "if you believe only in what is readily provable, and DIS-believe in ANYthing else you will live a life of anxious hopelessness". You are making a huge assumption that people who dis-believe are all anxious and hopeless. From my own experience as an atheist of many years with many atheist friends, that couldn't be further from the truth. I am a very happy and non-anxious person, and I believe I am to some degree that way because I am very comfortable in not believing in any supernatural beings, and it puts no pressure on me. The same with my friends.

And I don't see how my disbelief alienates anyone? I don't put it in anyone's face- if they ask, I will inform them that I do not believe. If believers are alienated, then they are creating the problem themselves.

I do not believe in any way that we know the answer to everything yet, but that doesn't mean I need 'faith' to answer those questions. Some things just aren't known yet. Some day we may know some more answers, but maybe not. And I don't see the connection with needing to be a believer to serve your fellow man. Some people serve their fellow man just because they want to help their fellow man. For no other reason than that. It makes one feel good to help others.

I really like what you've written here, but I would argue that you don't CHOOSE to believe things. Your beliefs are affected by external influences, or perhaps through internal reasoning, but you don't choose to believe something just because you want it to be true.

I think the things you are "choosing" to believe because you want them to be true falls under the realm of hopes. Does that make sense?

Choosing to believe something w/o any evidence whatsoever is akin to delusion. Hoping they are true, on the other hand, I think is fine/healthy.

I disagree that believing in the unknowable makes you happier.

I would think believing in the vengeful (yes, vengeful and please do not say I should disregard Christian tradition and large parts of the bible) Christian God what would allow people to burn in hell would stress the fuck out of me.

This is much more widespread than Mormonism.

From the time we are little we are surrounded by a set unjustifiable beliefs, and before our brains are developed enough to acquire the critical thinking skills necessary to reject these beliefs, we are told that these beliefs are factual.

So why don't we reject them as our brain matures and we learn about logic, evidence, and critical thinking?

One of the most insidious elements of these sets of unjustifiable propositions is that, contained inside the collection of beliefs is the sub-belief that it is virtuous to believe "on faith."

After being steeped in your set of unjustifiable beliefs for your formative years, you fail to notice that this requirement to believe "on faith" is part of the set of unjustifiable beliefs, is no more justifiable than all the others, and cannot, therefore, be used as a justification for the collective set of beliefs.

Using the logic of faith is no more reasonable than believing the claims of a book because one of the claims of the book is "everything in this book is true." Or believing a liar because one of their lies is "I'd never lie to you."

Why is this insidious? Because it teaches us sloppy non-critical thinking habits.

If one of these sets of unjustifiable beliefs IS true, the fact that they all include the same justification (faith) makes it impossible to adjudicate between true and false beliefs.
If your set of beliefs includes "kill the infidel," if you accept things non-critically, then what's to stop you flying a plane into a building?
After someone flies a plane into a building, if you are in into the habit of accepting propositions non-critically, what's to stop you invading the wrong country?
Faith, the non-critical acceptance of beliefs, and the sloppy thinking it leads to, does more harm than good.

Makes me think of the Nietzsche line that A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

Gotta be careful with this kind of statement: "From the time we are little we are surrounded by a set unjustifiable beliefs . . ."

especially when you refer to the world outside of LDS.

"We?"

I just want to point out that not everyone is/was spoonfed "faith" before they develop critical thinking skills. Maybe the majority of folks who read this forum were, but that makes it seem all the more important for readers to be made aware of this reality: Some people have been raised without "faith." Some people choose to raise their kids to develop their critical thinking skills sans "faith."

Not all of them are going to hell in a handbasket, either! :)

(I'm with you on the rest, btw! Just wanted to make that point for the sake of readers who may be insulated from the non-LDS world.)

I know many atheist that also have unjustified beliefs. They believe pink is a girl color and blue is a boy color. They wear lucky stocks to soccer, they hold their breath with they cross a bridge, they yell at the TV to encourage the favorite sports team.

No need to make atheist out to be superhuman processors of logic.

I think you are confusing different things with faith and beliefs in atheists.


David Jason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know many atheist that also have unjustified
> beliefs. They believe pink is a girl color and
> blue is a boy color.

I am an atheist, while I do not "believe" that blue is a boys color and pink is a girls. I do acknowledge that within out society, they are DEFINED as such by tradition. I may give a ping or blue gift to a new baby, but that would be based on TRADITION not on BELIEF. The atheist I know are the same, it is tradition, not belief.

> They wear lucky stocks to
> soccer, they hold their breath with they cross a
> bridge,

Really? You hang with so superstitious atheists. I know of atheists that joke about luck socks or hats. I used to talk about my lucky hat a lot. It was a river hat when I used to guide river trips. I would tell people that I never flipped a boat while I had my lucky hat on. Of course I never flipped a boat with or without my hat. I would also say my boat never lost a water fight as long as I had my lucky hat on. How does one "lose" a water fight? Of course the intent was to give our opponents a target and my team something to defend. It may things more fun. Most people knew I was not being serious. Recent experience has shown that many would believe me just so they could say exactly what you have said about atheist.

> they yell at the TV to encourage the
> favorite sports team.
>

The atheists I know do not yell to encourage their team, they yell to heighten the experience of watching the game, makes the feel more like they are part of the game. They do NOT have faith that their yelling is helping the team.

> No need to make atheist out to be superhuman
> processors of logic.

No need to label things that have nothing to do with faith as if it does just to bash atheists. Yes, they do the things you claim, but not for the same REASON you claim or imply.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2013 08:42PM by MJ.

Because it validates the behavior of those who believe.

I am convinced believers are generally motivated out of fear; they don't want to tick off an omnipotent god. When someone else believes too, the nagging doubt they have is reduced.

It is only a virtue to the con men (and women) who are asking you to believe without proof, with only their word.

Because, really, that's exactly how con men operate, only straight-up con men ask you to have faith in them, not in some abstract idea or principle, and they usually don't try to con you into believing that the rest of eternity depends on your faith and that you will be punished by some invisible being who is taking notes if you don't have faith. Con-men are usually more just into the monetary aspect of the game.

That's where the LDS church differs from run-of-the-mill con men. The church wants your money *and* your life, unto eternity.

In Mormonland, believing the unknowable is: mastering and destroying the natural man/ID/boundaries/personal selfishness/pride/self-identity/reasons why you feel guilty.