Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Yes, that's what I think.
A child going to kindergarten changes his/her family 100% of the time. I'm a longtime K teacher and know that for a fact. Every parent and little student has to adjust to a new and uncharted situation. Everyone learns to adjust to changes in life. Change happens. That's life.
So why in the world should we assume that leaving the mormon church would not cause major adjustments?
The mormon church programs parents to base much of their esteem on turning out children who buy into the mormon expectations and lifestyle. If a kid decides to dump the mormon life plan,the believing family pays social, emotional, and perceived eternal consequences. That means those invoved must make adjustments.
Who is at fault? I think the mormon church works hard to keep members under their control. They give approval to those who comply and use peer pressure, family disfavor, and priesthood power to curb every "blessing" possible from those who stray.
Some families explode and go crazy when they lose a member to apostacy. Other families adjust and move on because the mormon members harbor their own doubs or they are willing to absorb the brunt of change.
If families must adjust to going to kindergarten, it isn't surprising that dashing their hopes for a perfect eternal family in the Celestial Kingdom would cause problems. I think that this is to be expected.
Families who have stong healthy ties get through kindergarten and apostacies. Those who love the status quo more than their offspring might rant, rage, rail, disown, shun, and harass for the rest of their lives.
We, the exmos. have to take on the adult role if leaving the church sets off a firestorm. We have to give allowences for irragional reactions. We need to learn how to establish boundaries. We have to learn to back off and hang up the phone or leave family dinners early in necessay.
We have to be ready for outrageous TBM behaviors at weddings, funerals, emergency surgeries, and other times of strife. Others, nonmormons, have the luxury of family unity when there's been a death or grave medical diagosis.
Anyone who has been in a serious cult doesn't usually have the advantage of togetherness at times like that. Unfortuneately, mormons are taught to use times of crisis to twist arms and exert pressure, not opportunities to give and receive unconditional love and support.
Sorry to be real, but that's how I see it.
A child going to kindergarten changes his/her family 100% of the time. I'm a longtime K teacher and know that for a fact. Every parent and little student has to adjust to a new and uncharted situation. Everyone learns to adjust to changes in life. Change happens. That's life.
So why in the world should we assume that leaving the mormon church would not cause major adjustments?
The mormon church programs parents to base much of their esteem on turning out children who buy into the mormon expectations and lifestyle. If a kid decides to dump the mormon life plan,the believing family pays social, emotional, and perceived eternal consequences. That means those invoved must make adjustments.
Who is at fault? I think the mormon church works hard to keep members under their control. They give approval to those who comply and use peer pressure, family disfavor, and priesthood power to curb every "blessing" possible from those who stray.
Some families explode and go crazy when they lose a member to apostacy. Other families adjust and move on because the mormon members harbor their own doubs or they are willing to absorb the brunt of change.
If families must adjust to going to kindergarten, it isn't surprising that dashing their hopes for a perfect eternal family in the Celestial Kingdom would cause problems. I think that this is to be expected.
Families who have stong healthy ties get through kindergarten and apostacies. Those who love the status quo more than their offspring might rant, rage, rail, disown, shun, and harass for the rest of their lives.
We, the exmos. have to take on the adult role if leaving the church sets off a firestorm. We have to give allowences for irragional reactions. We need to learn how to establish boundaries. We have to learn to back off and hang up the phone or leave family dinners early in necessay.
We have to be ready for outrageous TBM behaviors at weddings, funerals, emergency surgeries, and other times of strife. Others, nonmormons, have the luxury of family unity when there's been a death or grave medical diagosis.
Anyone who has been in a serious cult doesn't usually have the advantage of togetherness at times like that. Unfortuneately, mormons are taught to use times of crisis to twist arms and exert pressure, not opportunities to give and receive unconditional love and support.
Sorry to be real, but that's how I see it.
No need to apologize for being real.
We need apologies from people who aren't real.
I agreed with everything you wrote.
We need apologies from people who aren't real.
I agreed with everything you wrote.
Maybe I got off on bad footing in the Help post. If I used terms that some view as loaded and they caused frustration I am sorry. I am known for being less than sensative at times. I assure you it is my way of trying to be straight forward, not an asshole ;).
I agree that change brings about more change. I just don't think that we can predict the consequences of actions that have such a complex ripple affect. It is someting we must deal with as we progress through life and handle one situation at a time. The posative and neutral reactions to DW and my exits were un-expected. The negative stereotypical TBM reactions came from, yet again, some un-expected sources.
I lust try to look at peoples reactions as a picture into thier souls. There are some family members and friends I am better off leaving out of my life. There are others I now wish to grow closer to. Everyones story is different. I apreciate others listening to my own stories and I respect and apreciate the chance to learn about other people who are on a path similar to my own.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 12:52PM by luckychucky.
I agree that change brings about more change. I just don't think that we can predict the consequences of actions that have such a complex ripple affect. It is someting we must deal with as we progress through life and handle one situation at a time. The posative and neutral reactions to DW and my exits were un-expected. The negative stereotypical TBM reactions came from, yet again, some un-expected sources.
I lust try to look at peoples reactions as a picture into thier souls. There are some family members and friends I am better off leaving out of my life. There are others I now wish to grow closer to. Everyones story is different. I apreciate others listening to my own stories and I respect and apreciate the chance to learn about other people who are on a path similar to my own.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 12:52PM by luckychucky.
And while we're on the subject, I'd like to point out a false and misleading sentiment that surfaces whenever this topic comes under discussion:
"It takes time for others to adjust to your major changes. You are the ones that changed. You left the generational, cultural, traditional religious tribe."
So its the apostate's fault the emporer has no clothes?
When a church goes from "the-one-true" to "lying cult" in the blink of an eye, I'd say that's a major change.
When its adherants go from the "enlightened few" to "brainwashed bots" in the same instant, I'd say that's a major change.
When said followers suddenly view loved ones as outcasts because they (loved ones) no longer believe, I'd say that's a major change.
The apostate, meanwhile, has only "changed" in that he or she has become a little wiser and, as a result, less gullible.
Mormons are extremely conditional when it comes to love. They love their cult above all else. Everything and everyone in the mind of a TBM comes in a very distant second. The cult wouldn't have it any other way.
Still, the cult and its followers do change where the apostate is concerned which feels much like a splinter in the mind's eye.
Timothy
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 10:43AM by Timothy.
"It takes time for others to adjust to your major changes. You are the ones that changed. You left the generational, cultural, traditional religious tribe."
So its the apostate's fault the emporer has no clothes?
When a church goes from "the-one-true" to "lying cult" in the blink of an eye, I'd say that's a major change.
When its adherants go from the "enlightened few" to "brainwashed bots" in the same instant, I'd say that's a major change.
When said followers suddenly view loved ones as outcasts because they (loved ones) no longer believe, I'd say that's a major change.
The apostate, meanwhile, has only "changed" in that he or she has become a little wiser and, as a result, less gullible.
Mormons are extremely conditional when it comes to love. They love their cult above all else. Everything and everyone in the mind of a TBM comes in a very distant second. The cult wouldn't have it any other way.
Still, the cult and its followers do change where the apostate is concerned which feels much like a splinter in the mind's eye.
Timothy
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 10:43AM by Timothy.
The morg lies and entraps. It enables members with a propensity to lash out at family members who leave the cult.
Everyone who has been a member has undergone programming to accept guilt over anyone who doesn't stay morg brainwashed. Many exmos continue to suffer guilt even when they know that all of mormonism is based on lies. So I'm opposed to anyone who expects the exmo to take the blame for the mistreatment they usually suffer because they can't live a lie.
I place blame where blame is due, with the mormon church. It sets up members to hound, harass, disown, threaten, and abhor those who have the good sense to leave.
If there are a few TBM families who shrug this off and who honor and support exmos for leaving, I'm not worried about those singular cases. To me it's foolish to expect other exmos to lavish extra love and support on those exmos who claim their families are already providing it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 10:38AM by Cheryl.
Everyone who has been a member has undergone programming to accept guilt over anyone who doesn't stay morg brainwashed. Many exmos continue to suffer guilt even when they know that all of mormonism is based on lies. So I'm opposed to anyone who expects the exmo to take the blame for the mistreatment they usually suffer because they can't live a lie.
I place blame where blame is due, with the mormon church. It sets up members to hound, harass, disown, threaten, and abhor those who have the good sense to leave.
If there are a few TBM families who shrug this off and who honor and support exmos for leaving, I'm not worried about those singular cases. To me it's foolish to expect other exmos to lavish extra love and support on those exmos who claim their families are already providing it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 10:38AM by Cheryl.
The cult and only the cult bears responsibility.
I'm personally "fed-up" with folks who make excuses for the cult's deplorable practices.
Timothy
I'm personally "fed-up" with folks who make excuses for the cult's deplorable practices.
Timothy
> "Mormons are extremely conditional when it comes to
> love. They love their cult above all else.
> Everything and everyone in the mind of a TBM comes
> in a very distant second. The cult wouldn't have
> it any other way."
If only there was a way to prove this as child abuse, it sucks!
> love. They love their cult above all else.
> Everything and everyone in the mind of a TBM comes
> in a very distant second. The cult wouldn't have
> it any other way."
If only there was a way to prove this as child abuse, it sucks!
It does. Even if nobody wants it to happen, it does. Damn, stupid cult!
of course it does.
Mormonism deliberately conditions members to think of those who leave as "less than".
Those who question the nonsense are "anti".
There is nothing accidental about it.
Mormonism is like a roach motel - you can check in but you can't check out.
The cult never lets go, not of even of those who resign,
Mormonism deliberately conditions members to think of those who leave as "less than".
Those who question the nonsense are "anti".
There is nothing accidental about it.
Mormonism is like a roach motel - you can check in but you can't check out.
The cult never lets go, not of even of those who resign,
My anti-mormon existence challenges everything they hold near and dear. So, the True Blues usually avoid me.
The Inactives hang with me.
The Jacks complain about mormonism to me.
The Inactives hang with me.
The Jacks complain about mormonism to me.
I didn't change my relationship with my family and I do know others who still have a close relationship in spite of having left the church. I agree that in many cases it does do irrepararable harm, but I'd like to sdee some proof that it is near 100%. That has not been my experience.
My grandmother shunned my dad for nearly 13-15 years(not sure which), because A: He didn't go on a mission and B: He married a Non-Mormon(who converted shortly after a civil marriage, but still ignored us).
It has altered my family relationships completely. Nothing will ever be the same with my grown children.
Every family is different, every relationship is different--and so anyone who comes on the board and says, "Well, this is my experience so YOU ARE WRONG" is way out of line.
My situation wasn't nearly as bad as others because my parents were certainly NOT what I'd call TBM and they also had respect for my experience and intellect, SO THEY LISTENED. BUT it hasn't been that way with everyone in my life--like my daughter.
So--it is really offensive when someone comes on here and tells us that their experience hasn't been bad, so what are we bellyaching about?
My situation wasn't nearly as bad as others because my parents were certainly NOT what I'd call TBM and they also had respect for my experience and intellect, SO THEY LISTENED. BUT it hasn't been that way with everyone in my life--like my daughter.
So--it is really offensive when someone comes on here and tells us that their experience hasn't been bad, so what are we bellyaching about?
cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every family is different, every relationship is
> different--and so anyone who comes on the board
> and says, "Well, this is my experience so YOU ARE
> WRONG" is way out of line.
>
> My situation wasn't nearly as bad as others
> because my parents were certainly NOT what I'd
> call TBM and they also had respect for my
> experience and intellect, SO THEY LISTENED. BUT it
> hasn't been that way with everyone in my
> life--like my daughter.
>
I did not say that. In fact I acknowledged the opposite. What I am quibbling with is Cheryl's assertion that it happens in nearly all cases. THAT IS WHAT HAS NOT BEEN MY EXPERIENCE.Got it yet? Perhaps reading posts before commenting would be a good idea. Geez. It does save embarrassment. It seems that those who are discounting the experiences of those of us who have not been rejected, shunned etc by claiming that this is what happens in nearly 100% of the cases are the ones who are discounting other people's experiences and being extremely disrepectfu. Think about it. It works both ways.BTW, if anyone has some statistics, it would be helpful. Otherwise making broad statements isn't particularly helpful.
> So--it is really offensive when someone comes on
> here and tells us that their experience hasn't
> been bad, so what are we bellyaching about?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 01:42PM by bona dea.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every family is different, every relationship is
> different--and so anyone who comes on the board
> and says, "Well, this is my experience so YOU ARE
> WRONG" is way out of line.
>
> My situation wasn't nearly as bad as others
> because my parents were certainly NOT what I'd
> call TBM and they also had respect for my
> experience and intellect, SO THEY LISTENED. BUT it
> hasn't been that way with everyone in my
> life--like my daughter.
>
I did not say that. In fact I acknowledged the opposite. What I am quibbling with is Cheryl's assertion that it happens in nearly all cases. THAT IS WHAT HAS NOT BEEN MY EXPERIENCE.Got it yet? Perhaps reading posts before commenting would be a good idea. Geez. It does save embarrassment. It seems that those who are discounting the experiences of those of us who have not been rejected, shunned etc by claiming that this is what happens in nearly 100% of the cases are the ones who are discounting other people's experiences and being extremely disrepectfu. Think about it. It works both ways.BTW, if anyone has some statistics, it would be helpful. Otherwise making broad statements isn't particularly helpful.
> So--it is really offensive when someone comes on
> here and tells us that their experience hasn't
> been bad, so what are we bellyaching about?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 01:42PM by bona dea.
You challenged "near 100%" to be more precise.
On this thread alone (at this point) we have an eleven to one ratio in favor of the OP's assertion.
What kind of "proof" do you require?
Timothy
On this thread alone (at this point) we have an eleven to one ratio in favor of the OP's assertion.
What kind of "proof" do you require?
Timothy
Timothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You challenged "near 100%" to be more precise.
>
> On this thread alone (at this point) we have an
> eleven to one ratio in favor of the OP's
> assertion.
>
> What kind of "proof" do you require?
>
> Timothy
11 of the most radical and anti Mormon posters who have had the worst experiences with the Morg hardly make up a scientific poll. Even you should know that.
-------------------------------------------------------
> You challenged "near 100%" to be more precise.
>
> On this thread alone (at this point) we have an
> eleven to one ratio in favor of the OP's
> assertion.
>
> What kind of "proof" do you require?
>
> Timothy
11 of the most radical and anti Mormon posters who have had the worst experiences with the Morg hardly make up a scientific poll. Even you should know that.
So what kind of "scientific Poll" would satisfy you?
One of those non-existent "most reputable scholars and historians agree" polls?
Timothy
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 03:02PM by Timothy.
One of those non-existent "most reputable scholars and historians agree" polls?
Timothy
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 03:02PM by Timothy.
... so-called "radical and anti Mormon posters" not count?
To be "scientific" one must take into consideration all opinions.
Even you should know that.
Timothy
To be "scientific" one must take into consideration all opinions.
Even you should know that.
Timothy
..because of what they teach. My daughter believes her parents are rejecting the truth, thus rejecting her, because we have chosen not to be an "eternal family". (we are no longer members) She resents us, and that resentment is evident at times in her behavior towards us. If the teachings of the LDS church were taken out of the equation I believe she would see that we do indeed love her and care about her.