Why are Mormons so passive aggressive? My TBM friend just told me that the Mormon girls in her six-year-old daughter's primary class are so mean to her, the daughter prays every night that they will stop picking on her. My TBM friend said her daughter has never been picked on before, not at school, not anywhere, but only by the girls at church. To give perspective, this TBM friend is actually not super uptight, is very cool, and married to one of my best friends. She listens to the Smiths and we went to ska shows together. Their family is the epitome of Mormon perfection, her husband is in the EQP and all. Why are Mormon women such mean girls?

They learn it from their mothers...

The whole system is very passive aggressive. Actually, I'm glad you chose those words because they're very, very descriptive of what I spent countless paragraphs on in my "Ex-Testimony."

Let's Be Friends Forever! Now let us run more and more little aspects of your life! Let us help, you're not doing quite everything like we tell you to! What? You don't want our help? Screw you then, I guess you won't get into the GOOD heaven with the Cool People!

(I cared very little for the GOOD heaven. I always admired the guy that wanted to be in the crappy heaven.)

(I kind of did too. Although, in the Outer Darkness it's nothing but mormon and JW missionaries with their foot in your door for all eternity!)

When I was brand new in the church, it must have been around 1965 or 66. The teacher hadn't come into the classroom yet for Primary, so I went up to the chalkboard with the other girls and started drawing. My drawing of choice happened to be a psychedelic peace sign. When I had finished, I turned around and one of my classmates was looking at me in disgust and said "we don't do that here". I could have died, I felt so embarrassed. It really never got any better with my peers at church. They had been raised together in the church and seemed to have no room for intruders.

or keeping her daughter out of it.

What a freakish thing to send a small child to be picked on at a church worship service.

This is my only memory of primary - I don't think my parents made me return. I wish I had placed more importance on this memory, because that was the way TSCC always treated me. I was never impressed with how they treated others, because there is always a hierarchy of outsiders, and outcasts within TSCC. Still I gave them too much trust, because they were a "church", until I realized these weren't exceptions, but the rule.

Why is TSCC more important than her daughter? There are mean people everywhere, but TSCC has the control down to an art form. Why doesn't she think her daughter deserves better? I have never understood how the brainwashing overrides concern for the welfare of members, and family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 05:13AM by atheist&happy:-).

They must take steps to protect her. Now.

Something (I don't remember) was said when I gave the prayer once in class. I have never prayed in front of anyone since.

There are mean girls everywhere. I hate to say this, but it is not unique to Mormonism.

But I do wonder if it is not more prevalent, because I think it might be about individuality.

A girl who is comfortable with herself and who she is and interested in a great many different subjects and experiences is a threat to and therefore a target of girls who are all about conformity . . .

Yeah, it isn't a Mormon problem. I have worked in the schools long enough that girls can and often are extremely cruel to each other and they tend to hold grudges. It is difficult to decide whether to intervene and risk making things worse or trying to help the girl handle it herself. I would certainly talk to my daughter, take her wishes into account and I would not force her to go if she doesn't want to.If Primary is so important. let her go to another ward.

Yes, there are ALWAYS mean girls--but when you go to church, you EXPECT it to be better. There were plenty of mean girls when I went to primary. I was best friends with the girl whose parents weren't active (my dad wasn't very active--but her parents smoked, drank, eventually divorced in the 1960s--so a big deal). We were always targeted even by the teachers.

After we got to junior high, then she quit going to church and I got to be ALONE. I was close to one or two of the other girls, but I was still always singled out.

When we went to see Saturday's Warrior, I was the one they didn't have enough tickets for to sit with my class--so was assigned to sit with the younger classes BY MY TEACHER--until one of the cooler girls canceled. I had no clue this was going on until later. If I had known, I would have sat with the younger girls or not gone.

The interesting thing is that this leader made me two beautiful afghans for my twins when they were born (I was 28 when they were born--so it was at least 10 years after she was my teacher). One of the other girls from our class was furious that she never got a baby gift from this teacher. I never used them. I did save them, but I never used them because of the feelings I had towards that teacher.

The problem with the LDS mean girls is that the leaders and teachers are often in on it or do nothing about it.

Well, that may have your experience, but my teachers were nice and fair to the girls most of the time.The cliques were pretty much the same as they were out of church. It would be nice if you could expect kids in church to be nice, but their personalitlies and temperment show up in church just as they do every place else.BTW, my dad was a Catholic and neither of my parents were keeping the WofW. I wasn't baptized until my father died when I was 15 and my teachers did not discriminate against me. I am not doubting your experiences, but I am saying that because it happened to you, it happened to everyone else too, I am sure both of us could find others who share our experiences and I don't think either of us knows which experience is the most common.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 06:30PM by bona dea.

I saw this as an adult leader, too. I was a counselor in YWs for a while and I made sure I watched out for those who the other girls AND LEADERS picked on. Being in YWs leadership in the church was like being in high school again. I know this sounds FAR OUT, but the 2 leaders I worked with LOVED my husband and were very envious of who I was married to as their husbands were ??? I eventually asked to be released because they were always up to something. I hated YWs as a leader. I thought it would be different when I was an adult and I was wrong. AND some of the girls I was a leader to still write me to this day.

Mormon women are worse than the girls.

Sure, I had some good teachers along the way, but I had some horrible ones, too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 06:29PM by cl2.

One of my friends had a similar experience when her daughter entered Young Womens. The older beehives were really mean and picked on her daughter relentlessly. The daughter would come home from church crying for almost 10 months, until her friend had a birthday and advanced to YW. Then there were two kids who clung together while the other girls picked on them both. My question is:

WHY do parents allow this? If my daughter were going somewhere she was being picked on and came home crying EVERY time, guess where my daughter wouldn't be going back to? Why did my friend just let her daughter go in there to be verbally and emotionally attacked, week after week? And most importantly, what did that teach her daughter about life - about who is on her side - about what she is worth to her family. It was so wrong. And what somehow made it worse for me is that my friend is so nice in every other aspect of her life. But she abandoned her daughter to bullies - repeatedly.

Yes--you have to wonder. You do believe if you send your kids to church that they will not be bullied.

But, then again, our parents sent us to bishopric interviews, too. It really blows my mind sometimes.

When I knew that my ex was going to leave--I pulled my kids out of church. I still believed, but I was NOT GOING TO ALLOW THEM to go through what I did as a child. They were treated well all their lives and I knew that would change once they came from a broken family.

This tells me that there is a problem with the dynamic in the class and among the particular girls or perhaps with the teacher. I think if the parent attended with the child, they might be able to identify the problems and work out solutions.

It seems harsh and unnecessary for a little child to attend a church week after week and feel she's badly treated.

This is church for goodness sakes, meaning that it's optional, not a requirment to learn to read or calculate.

If the problem can't be solved within this class and the little girl can't be placed in another church class, it seems better to me to keep her out of church altogether. Church should feed the soul and nourish the spirit. If the opposite is happeneing, take steps to protect this child. Otherwise, suffer the guilt of being part of the system which does emotional harm to an innocent child.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This tells me that there is a problem with the
> dynamic in the class and among the particular
> girls or perhaps with the teacher. I think if the
> parent attended with the child, they might be able
> to identify the problems and work out solutions.
>
>
> It seems harsh and unnecessary for a little child
> to attend a church week after week and feel she's
> badly treated.
>
> This is church for goodness sakes, meaning that
> it's optional, not a requirment to learn to read
> or calculate.
>
> If the problem can't be solved within this class
> and the little girl can't be placed in another
> church class, it seems better to me to keep her
> out of church altogether. Church should feed the
> soul and nourish the spirit. If the opposite is
> happeneing, take steps to protect this child.
> Otherwise, suffer the guilt of being part of the
> system which does emotional harm to an innocent
> child.

I think the mother going to class might embarrass the girl and possibley make the teasing worse. However, talking to the teacher privately might help. I do agree that if things don't get better, the girl should not be forced to go. This isn't school and there are other wards she could attend if she wants to have the experience.The world will not end if she skips Young Women's entirely

In public schools, parents of young kids often sit in on classes. It's common practice and doesn't embarrass anyone except an occasional bully. Then the teacher, parent, and sometimes the child have a conference to work out a plan of action. Doing nothing is a big mistake here since this is long ongoing problem. And how pathetic that the tot can only hope for help through prayer. Listening to a prayer like that should be a wake up call for the mom to step in let her child know she'll help her find solutions or will pull her out of a bad situation.

I agree with you Cheryl. On bullying I'm for hitting hard and make it damn clear it won't be tolerated. I worked in a school setting and had a good relationship with teachers and administration, but if bullying wasn't being addressed I raised hell. I helped kids document the bullying and I advised parents to see an attorney if the school didn't address the issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 07:01PM by robertb.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you Cheryl. On bullying I'm for
> hitting hard and make it damn clear it won't be
> tolerated. I worked in a school setting and had a
> good relationship with teachers and
> administration, but if bullying wasn't being
> addressed I raised hell. I helped kids document
> the bullying and I advised parents to see an
> attorney if the school didn't address the issue.

I agree that the mother needs to do something, but I am not sure that sitting in on the class is the thing to do. It might give her daughter the reputation of a mama's girl.That would only give the bullies more ammuntion. The mother and the teacher cannot be there all the time and the bullying could get worse when they are not around. Besides, the kids won't bully the girl if her mother is there so the effects are not likely to be very long lasting.The mother isn't likely to learn much since the kids are not going to pick on her daughter while she is there.I am just not sure what this would accomplish. I would talk to the teacher, talk to my daughter and try to see exactly what is going on. I would find out what the girl would like to do about it. Would she like mom to come to class? Would she like to attend another class or not attend at all? Could Mom help by giving her some tips on how to deal with it? Would talking with the parents help? I would also find out if this is a problem in other places.It isn't always possible for a child to deal with it, but if they can, it has a better result.Sometimes all it takes is fore the kid to stand up to the bully. Maybe sitting in on t he class would be a good idea, but I'd talk to the girl first and see if she wants this, I would talk to the teacher and see if it is necessary, The teacher may not be aware of what is going on. Kids usually do their bullying when there are no adults around anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 08:24PM by bona dea.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In public schools, parents of young kids often sit
> in on classes. It's common practice and doesn't
> embarrass anyone except an occasional bully. Then
> the teacher, parent, and sometimes the child have
> a conference to work out a plan of action. Doing
> nothing is a big mistake here since this is long
> ongoing problem. And how pathetic that the tot
> can only hope for help through prayer. Listening
> to a prayer like that should be a wake up call for
> the mom to step in let her child know she'll help
> her find solutions or will pull her out of a bad
> situation.

I never said she should do nothing. I'm just not sure about sitting in class. I suspect the bullying is taking place when the teacher isn't around.Very few kids will do something like that when an authority figure is around. If it is happening in front of the teacher, the daughter can tell her that and she can deal with the teacher or pull the kid from class.If the teacher is allowing this, she certainly will not allow it during the mothers visit so I don't see what the point is. Another possibility is that the teacher has no control over the class. She can talk to her daughter about this or maybe just stop by the class on a pretext a couple of times and see what is going on when she is not expected.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 08:40PM by bona dea.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t
Having touble comprehending again, I see. I never said that the mother should do nothing or have a defeatest attitude. In fact, I recommended a number of things I would do and I explained why I would think twice about sitting in class. Perhaps you would like to go bacck and try reading the posts. You might learn something. BTW, I also never said that I wouldn't consider visiting the class. I said I would try other things first.You also seem to have missed the fact that I agree with most of what you said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 09:29PM by bona dea.

bing bullied! She had better read up on bullying and its very bad effects on both the bullied and the bystanders. In fact, a good book is actually called Bullies, The Bullied, and the Bystanders.

This is serious and it can often have life-long bad consequences. The mean girl phenomenon has actually been observed in girls as young as three years old. I think this research was done at BYU, too.

This could be addressed in a meeting with the girls and their mothers, but sadly, the mothers of the mean girls are likley to remain clueless, and the powers that be probably don't want to roil the waters the way a wise teacher might.

I hope somebody helps that little girl.

We worked with her on her assertiveness and confidence and intervened at school, and it has helped a lot. She also has a wonderful teacher who doesn't put up with bullying, and he does a lot of team-building work with his students.

It didn't help that last year a teacher working in the after-school program who bullied our daughter and other children as well. (I got a good whiff of personality disorder from her.) We, other parents, and staff made a complaint to the principal, who put a stop to the teacher's behavior.

We recently bought a book on the subject, also, Queen Bees Wannabees, to have some more tools to continue to address girl-bullying, since the "mean girl culture" exists through high school.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2011 07:01PM by robertb.

robertb Wrote:
------------------------------------------------
> It didn't help that last year a teacher working in
> the after-school program who bullied our daughter
> and other children as well. (I got a good whiff of
> personality disorder from her.)

Reminds me of my fifth grade teacher. And due to the way my school worked, it was my first year of middle school. I needed some love. She hated me! Absolutely hated my guts for no reason. And every teacher before then and the ones the year after her loved me! My mom could even tell. Both of my parents still remember her name, as I don't think I'll ever forget.

Reading through I think my impression that girls who are comfortable with themselves and are interested in the world around them are causing the girls (and their mothers and teachers!) who are all about conforming to feel threatened (and therefore to stirke out at them) is on the mark!

Speak out! Send a message to the bullies and to their enablers that you don't like or approve of this and that it is not okay--and if they don't listen or improve their behavior, take action of some sort.

The most important message won't be to the bullies and their gang though--it will be to the girl who is being targeted: she will see and hear that she is valued! Someone has her back. Someone sees and hears her feelings and cares enough to do somehting.

nwmcare Wrote:
--
>
> The most important message won't be to the bullies
> and their gang though--it will be to the girl who
> is being targeted: she will see and hear that she
> is valued! Someone has her back. Someone sees and
> hears her feelings and cares enough to do
> somehting.

That is the best thing said here.

I feel so sorry for that little girl. When I was that age my best friend was still in my ward, so things were ok. When they split the ward and I was left in the clutches of the neighborhood girls, I remember many days crying after church and school. I remember getting the "it's not the church, it's the people" speech from my mom.
I think she probably did say something though, because she was put into YWs while I was in. That made it so the girls acted nice while she or the other leaders were right there, then totally ignored me when they weren't watching and at school. Lovely...

YW they don't get any better.