I ran across this article after a friend called Mormonism a "Prosperity Gospel". It's fascinating to see how blind Mormons are to their own belief.

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/86/Are-we-latching-on-to-prosperity-gospel

The author condescendingly discusses the dangers of prosperity gospel churches in Dallas, especially as he condemns the passing of the plate. I've always been amazed at how Mormons poopoo the collection plate, while they have a thing called "tithing settlement" and "temple recommend" interviews. At least the collection plate is anonymous!

If a family earns $60,000/year, they are expected to give $6,000 to the church, or $500 a month. That's a donation of $125 every Sunday. Most people give around $20 to the collection plate, but I've seen people give as little as $5 or even less without shame. I'd guess most people give $500-$1000 a year to their church, or what Mormons give in a month or two.

Isn't Lorenzo Snow's "Windows of Heaven" speech just a precursor to 1990s Prosperity Gospels? His promise: give us your money and God will pay you back in spades. Isn't that what Coppins is condemning Pastor Jakes for saying 100 years later in Dallas?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2011 01:18PM by axeldc.

As you point out, Axel, Mormons pay and pay, and certainly not without expectations of prosperity.

Jakes and his brand of fundamentalism is not something I'd be caught defending. But, the difference between Jakes' Potter's Church and the Mormon church, is that you can fully participate in everything, even if you don't give a dime, and even if you're not baptized and confirmed.

I was watching some televangelist on TV one Sunday morning YEARS AND YEARS AGO. I was in the singles' ward. They were asking for $10 a week to be sent to their "church." I thought, "Oh, that is horrible." And then the light bulb went off. Wow! That would be a lot cheaper!

I mentioned it to a guy I was dating when I went to church. He didn't find it funny in the least.

Every once in a while, especially after I get a raise or a new job, I stop to calculate what my tithing bill would be today. The amount is staggering and completely out of line with my budget. It would amount to half what I pay in rent right now, or 2x my car payment.

There is only one way I could afford to pay tithing without seriously diminishing my lifestyle or going deep into debt: stop saving for retirement. If I stopped contributing to my retirement plan, then I could pay tithing.

Considering that the LDS Church is not going to take care of me in my dotage, that seems like a foolish move. It's also likely how most Mormons pay for their tithing.

I haven't paid tithing in almost 20 years. I haven't even stopped to figure out what my tithing bill would be. I don't have that much "extra" money. I wonder how my TBM daughter would feel if I stopped buying her gifts? Paying her cell phone bill? Her dad pays her car insurance.

I have never stopped to figure it out until you just said that. What a drain on my finances that would be!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2011 05:37PM by axeldc.

In most non-mormon churches I have attended, the collection amounts are handled by a committee or appointed board. The pastor is never given information about who does or does not donate or how much. That way he or she isn't influenced by money in how individual members are treated.

axeldc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't Lorenzo Snow's "Windows of Heaven" speech
> just a precursor to 1990s Prosperity Gospels? His
> promise: give us your money and God will pay you
> back in spades.

Big difference in my mind is the fact that LDS prosperity gospel is in amorphous "blessings" from heaven and not any kind of temporal prosperity. Joe Smith's dying deep in debt was one of the signs to me that "The Gospel" was bull.

In the film "Windows of Heaven", Lorenzo Snow comes up with the "Windows of Heaven" during a serious drought. He tells the good Saints of St. George that if they just give him their money, God will make it rain, saving their crops.

This is no different than a 21st C. congregation being told that tithing will get you that job, promotion, raise, or cause our investments to prosper, your house to sell and your bills to balance.

The implication is a clear material one: tithing = material prosperity, whether it's crops saved from drought or more modern forms of wealth.

axeldc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The implication is a clear material one: tithing =
> material prosperity, whether it's crops saved from
> drought or more modern forms of wealth.
This is what I always heard, over and over and over and over...
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,49-1-22-21,00.html
"Members of the Church who do not tithe do not lose their membership; they only lose blessings. Through Malachi the Lord asks: "Will a man rob God? . . . But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings."7 If we will trust in the Lord, He will open the windows of heaven to us as we give back to Him the one-tenth He asks of us. His promise is sure: "I will . . . pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."8 Although tithing carries with it both temporal and spiritual blessings, the only absolute promise to the faithful is "ye shall have the riches of eternity.""

Loved this tid bid as he was critiquing T.D. Jakes sermon,

"Sure, it's a bit simplistic, and it lacks some important details of the Atonement, but overall, it's better than nothing."

Just a good example of the utter superiority complex that most morgbots have, but how blantantly clueless they are about their own process, history, and paradigm. Blind stupid fool.

This phrase and/or variations of it occurs dozens of times in the Book of Mormon.

(This guy has apparently not read the Book of Mormon--like so many of his fellow cultists!)

The difference between the Prosperity Cycle and evangelical God-wants-you-to-be-rich prosperity "gospel" is that the Mormon version says you can get TOO rich and then become prideful, turn from the Lord, yadda yadda yadda.

Either way, the implication is that wealth equals holiness and poverty equals sin -- which fits nicely with conservative political belief.

chance. We went to a ward picnic.

They piled up a big hill of sawdust and mixed coins in. The kids were told to dig in. The big kids pushed down the little kids while the parents cheered them all on.

We grabbed our toddler and ran. It was a perfect metaphor for the whole organization.

Money grubbing starts young.

hilarious and apt

My wife's only comment when I told her that I was no longer paying tithing was, "if you stop paying tithing, you might lose your job". My answer:"Then we'll have that much more saved in the bank until i find another job." I also pointed out that the prospects of my continued employment in this economy depends more on market forces and the value of my labor to the company than how much money I give to the church. I even said that the church isn't telling my employer whether I've paid tithing or not, and my employer doesn't care whether I give money to the church. She hasn't said one thing about it since.

My ex and I quit paying tithing 20 years ago and both of us have been employed the entire time. He has been at his job for 29 years and I've had "both" mine for YEARS. I quit one. I was just offered another one.

BUT then our marriage fell apart. It was probably because we stopped paying tithing--ha ha ha.

so axeldc--what did you say that you deleted. Probably about paying our daughter's bills (while she is in college)--but I do find it rather "telling" how mormons think. The twisted logic blows my mind.

Mormons also are magical thinkers. If you pay your tithing, you will get a job. If you stop paying, you will get laid off.

How is this different from lighting a candle and chanting, and hoping something happens?

There is no direct correlation between paying tithing and losing your job, unless your boss is your bishop or you work for the church. There is a direct negative correlation between your bank balance and giving away 10% of your income.

I believe in giving within one's means, and that doesn't have to mean to a church. Charity begins at home. You can pay someone's rent for a month or stock their refrigerator.

I "tithed" my December income to a family shelter run by a local church that I respect but don't belong to. They're doing good work. I see the impact of their services every day. I don't expect anything back except the knowledge that someone had a warm place to stay partly because of my gift. I feel much better about that than I would about writing checks to an organization that steals from its members while guilt-tripping them that they aren't allowing it to steal more.