An earlier poster noted how TSCC discourages married members from riding in a car alone with a non-family member of the opposite sex who is married, single, or vice versa. No exceptions. Here is my perspective on the teaching of this rule, its effect on members, and a few personal experiences of my own. Let me know what you think of the way I handled things in experience 1) further below.

As with many other aspects of Mormonism, this one size fits all emphasis on rules and behavior discourages members from thinking on their own. Didn't Joseph Smith say teach men correct principles and let them govern themselves? It also breeds a very judgmental and suspicious membership. If someone does not follow the rule, red flags aromatically go up and gossip and speculation begin. I don't understand. What about the spirit of the law? Emergency circumstances? Spousal permission? This teaching, like so many others, creates the very Pharisees Jesus counseled against.

Background of the rule as it relates to me:
About 8 years ago there was a stake priesthood meeting at seven a.m. A member of the high council passed out three or four hypothetical questions and divided us into groups to answer them. He had each group write down how it would respond. In one scenario, you are married, it is a cold wintry day, and as you almost home from work you notice a woman getting out of a car that has slid off the side of the road. The snow is falling hard. What should you do?

Our group wrote down that we could get her out of the cold and offer her a ride home and then either call some friends to help tow her car out of the ditch it call a tow truck. Not the answer the high councilor was looking for. He lectured us on this principle of never riding some with the opposite sex under any circumstance.

It caused quite stir. Aren't we supposed to help others in need? What would Jesus have done? We were then told that aside from the law of chastity, the rule was meant to protect the name of the church. After all, what if the Elders Quorum president were seen driving home with Relief Society president? Even if there was a good reason, the observer would not know it. Who knows, vicious rumors could start in the stake and potentially damage spousal relationships.

After making an example of our group, the high councilman then turned to the rest of the priesthood gathered and asked how we really should have responded. Group think kicked into high gear and we got some very interesting responses:

1:Keep on driving and let someone else help
2: Stop to tell them woman you will call her a tow truck.
3: My favorite: Ask her if she has home teachers and call them

The high councilman then twisted the hypo a bit. What if you knew who the woman was? What if she told you she lived just a couple of blocks away? What if she didn't have a coat on? In each, he insisted, the cardinal rule could not be violated. If you know the woman, ever more the reason not to take her home. Two blocks, two miles, it's all the same. If she is cold, suggest she start her car, turn on the heater, and wait inside.

Wow! Just, wow! I thought to myself, "I don't care what people think. If someone is in need and I am in a position to help, I'm going to do it no matter what."

Personal experience:

This teaching has affected me personally, even if I disagree with it. I have had many opportunities to help others, and despite knowing there is nothing wrong with giving a co-worker a ride home when their car is in the shop, I can't help but think of what was taught at that priesthood meeting every single time. Guilt comes over me still. It is silly, but part of me also still worries that a ward member will see me, get the wrong idea, and cause my tbm spouse grief. And yes, my tbm spouse is very tbm on this issue, so I respect her wishes and make sure she is comfortable with any driving arrangements in advance, where possible.

1) I once attended a weekend conference out of town with some school colleagues. We carpooled in a few vehicles. I needed to leave the conference late Saturday so I could be at church to support a relative playing a musical number in church. I asked around to see if any drivers were interested in leaving early. There was a liberal tbm female from my same ward that said she needed to be back for church herself and offered me a ride. I personally had no issue riding a few hours with her but I understood the scandal this might create in the eyes of ward members. I called my wife to explain the situation. she was a little concerned, so I managed to find another "non-member" male to ride along with us. I tried to offer the "non-member" guy shotgun. However, he insisted on sitting in the back seat so he could stretch his legs out.

So there I was for three hours in the front seat riding with another women from the ward late at night. The fellow in the back seat fell asleep. For some reason, my internal guilt complex kicked. I knew this was perfectly fine, but that stupid rule kept going through my head and driving me bonkers.

When we took the freeway exit for the school, I faced another "dilemma." The male passenger in the back seat lived right on campus, but both me and the liberal tbm girl lived near each other but a few more miles from school. I could call my wife and have her drag the kids out of bed at one in the morning to pick me up at school or we could drop him off and then she could easily let me out at my apartment on her way home. Then I thought of how it might look the many tbms at my apartment complex chock to see me getting dropped off at such an hour by a woman other than my wife.

So what did I do? I thanked the liberal tbm girl for the ride, and accompanied the male to his dorm to get a ride home in his car so I wouldn't have to ride alone with the liberal tbm girl.
It was clear when I entered his dorm that his values were very different than those of Mormonism. Inside the dorm was his female roommate. He kindly took me home and just laughed as I explained my "dilemma". He asked why I worried so much and told me in the real world people aren’t judgmental like that. I thought to myself, "Dangit! I wish I didn't have all this baggage."

2) I once picked up a starving female hitch hiker in the middle of nowhere and dropped her off at the nearest gas station, and bought here something to eat. Was this wrong? I thought Jesus would have done the same.

3) A few weeks ago, a tbm fellow in the ward invited us over for dinner while his ultra tbm wife and family were out of town. To our surprise, when we came over, a young, single girl was there helping with the food. Apparently she was there because he was giving her a tutoring lesson in physics. We ate a nice dinner, chatted, and then left the two to continue the tutoring lesson.

Now what do you think of that? Silly driving rules are one thing. But would you be okay with your spouse being alone with someone of the opposite sex, with or without your knowledge at the house while you were out of town?

So this assclown is trying to convince you that given the first opportunity, every last person will dive down the rabbit hole and commit the most atrocious sins imaginable? That assumption is extremely pessimistic. The problem with that guy's whole premise is that it is based on irrational paranoia: "others will see it, draw conclusions, and TALK."

In other words, the jerk is admitting that the whole cult is full of male and female VICIOUS GOSSIPING BITCHES and the stupid cult leaders don't want to do anything about THAT.

Just so it is absolutely clear, I think those driving rules are silly. Now, members of the opposite sex at my home alone with my wife receiving tutoring...I may feel different about that. But perhaps even that is an irrational paranoia. Who knows?

a NORMAL human being.

And thanks for the good stories!

:-)

Man you really have to be cult brainwashed to believe that the reputation of the church is more important than the life and safety of another human being.

And what kind of publicity would there be if the woman dies of hypothermia and it is discovered a ward member drove by.

Being caught in public with the opposite sex is crazy talk. If unfounded rumors fly, that is the gossipers issue. I know it happens though as I was in a ward where a lot of members did not know my sister and I were related (different last name with her married). We had caused a few rumors before people found out.

The tutoring situation I feel is different, but not based on LDS teachings. When I was tutoring as a grad student, I was always in some public area.

The ones I always got a kick out in this ward was when other people would report my ex and the women who were flirting with him. I'd just chuckle.

BUT when I was young and worked at Thiokol, one day I ran out of gas on the way home. Luckily, one of the last carpools stopped to pick me up--all mormon church leaders (just not our typical TBMs). They even hooked up my car and towed it home--quite a ways. Me riding with 5 men.

Then there was a carpool of men that I would ride to Brigham City with rather than going with my carpool to Logan. I did this now and then to go visit my parents. One day I went to a bridal shower and one of the wives of tehse men was there. She started accusing me of leaving lipstick in her car. I have NEVER worn lipstick in my entire life. She just wouldn't let it die until the bride to be--who worked with me and was not a mormon--piped up and told her she was full of it--that she obviously didn't know me.

I had completely forgotten about the appearance of evil. I rode for several years with 3 other men--only one an inactive mormon--all married and I was single. I used to stop and buy then beer if I did something stupid on my day driving.

There was not ONE PERSON who ever thought I was coming onto them either. None of the men at least.

The whole idea is ridiculous. I had forgotten about it until coming to this board. I pointed out again the other day taht it was ALWAYS the good litlte TBM husbands who drove me home as a teenage babysitter. It was very uncomfortable, but teenagers aren't a problem?

What about taxis? Is a male taxi driver not allowed to pick up a woman? And what if a woman needs to call a taxi, does she have to insist im a female driver?

Rather than teach their people not to judge (like Jesus allegedly did), they give their people permission to judge you if you disobey this preposterous rule?

Reminds me of a story. My wife's best friend (non-mormon female) came out to visit to help when our second child was born. We all went out for ice cream but my wife stayed in the car with the baby while I went in with my our other daughter and my wife's friend. I ran in to a member from our ward and her first words were "where is your wife" in a very accusatory manner. I thought maybe I reading too much into it but when we got back to the car, my wife's friend commented on how weird that was.

I also made the mistake one morning in bishopric meeting of mentioning that I was at a female coworker's house the previous day working on a project. This was met with a bunch of questions: did your wife know? was her husband home? what room were you in?

Bizarre line to take on helping the woman in need.

Trade down to the lowest common denominator in case "some people" could gossip and potentially cause the Church some embarrassment. And humanity goes out of the window.

This is exactly what Jesus preached against his entire ministry. Glad to see that this High Councilman really took this teaching to heart.

On a more personal note, if my wife were stuck at the side of a road in a snowstorm and I heard a male colleague or acquaintance just drove by and didn't stop to help for the sake of appearances, I'd tear them a new one and really give the locals something to gossip about.

Not surprising as the God these people worship permits starvation, war, injustice, disease, and all sorts of other suffering but helps believers find lost keys and get prime parking spots. Seems these folks and their God have a lot of trouble prioritizing. Makes me wish someone would start chatting "gnat, gnat, gnat" during this sort of garbage--as in "Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2011 08:09PM by robertb.

Seems like rules like this often come from those who would hump a knothole themselves, eh? Either that or "if I ain't gettin' any I don't even want to think that you think about gettin'any."

The reason many muslim woman are burkha-ed up like a parrot cage at night has nothing to do with modesty, it has to do with horndog dudes who have no self control and get off on power over others' lives.

It's the Middle East.

Yes, the same thought crossed my mind about parallels to the Middle East, particularly the Islamic countries.

I suppose the parable of the good Samaritan as recorded in Luke is null and void, because he was speaking only as a man.

Glad2B Out

Whatever happened to "he that is compelled in all things, the same is slothful and not a wise servant, therefore he receiveth no reward"? (not exact quote and I don't know the reference). But I do think that today's mormons turned off their brains a long time ago and could not even begin to think for themselves in a situation like that if their lives depened on it. "Hmm, there's a lady freezing in the cold, I wonder if I should give her a ride? Oops, I'm a man, I can't. Rumors will start if someone sees her in my car. I sure hope her children will understand why people let her mother freeze and die."

And trust me, I know plenty of mormons who, if they'd been told that absolutely under NO circumstances do you ride in a car with someone of the opposite sex, would have passed that woman up. Because, you know, that's what Jesus would have been concerned about too. He just didn't tell us because there were no cars then.

But as for the tutoring thing... well, I was fine with my husband having one of the girls from his "study group" at BYU over while I was away at a Relief Society meeting. I mean, after all, they were studying, ferchrissake. Yes, I WAS that dumb. I'm sure that's what all the guys on his high council court thought.

Remember when they accused him of hanging out in a bar, that it didn't look good for a rabbi? And he answered by asking something along the lines of, "Doesn't the doctor go where the sick are?"

I have had my share of that putting appearances ahead of compassion--in fact, ahead of everything else. But isn't that the real Mormon ethic: WE MUST LOOK GOOD rather than WE MUST BE GOOD. I think it is revealing in a deep way about the morays of the culture.

Mormons are extremely suspicious and catty beyond belief. When I lived in Richmond, Utah, I was raising a house full of little girls and had several grown sons. They came and visited and spent the night. The bishop called me and said that the neighbors thought I was running a whorehouse (my word not his) because there were men coming and going all hours of the day and night.

What special light of Christ makes people see the worst in others, what special witness?

Peculiar people indeed.

Anagrammy

I think there is a principle involved here around the subject of situations in which men and women are susceptable to the enticings of the opposite sex.
Take the office party, all year office colleagues work alongside each other, throw in the seasons greetings and some alcohol and the chances are that the photocopier is going to get used for more than photcopying.
The idea that married people should be aware of avoiding situations which may lower their adherence to their marriage vows is not unreasonable. However, that doesn't justify people to be careless towards the needs of others, such as single women who's cars breakdown - what if the Priesthood holder had ignored the damsel in distress and then read in the following days newspaper that she had been abducted, raped and murdered? What would Christ think of him then? How would the Church look when it was discovered that a representative of their Church under instruction from its Leaders had consciously ignored her to 'protect the good name of the Church'?


Some people are just egotistical Morons

Was I over-reacting on this one? Or under the circumstances, was it the best way to handle things? A lot of it had to do with my wife and her comfort level. But looking back at the situation I still wonder if I acted silly.

But I think the tutoring is inappropriate, especially if she was a minor child. If she is of age I still find it questionable. The tutors I know always make a point of not being alone with the students, but they work with high school students.

Back when I worked in corrections we used to have to travel all over the state to testify in court. Whoever had to testify traveled together. Had I insisted on traveling alone instead of with a man it would have been a waste of state money.

Just in my opinion,

You overreacted then, and you are over thinking now.

Unless,
You were likely to jump on her like a randy hippo and she was ready to reciprocate.

You acted according to your programming, don't beat yourself up over it. Now you're out and free ;) so all is well in Zion.
Unless as Jon suggests you actually feared you would put the moves on her if you were left alone, in which case you acted out of respect for your relationship and commitment to your wife.

Blagh don't you hate the guilt complex TSCC instills in you? I can't wait until I can kill of the last of those parasitic worms.

Jesus would definitely help any sufferer, male or female. What your teacher told you to do was basically asking you to follow the example of the jerky Priest in the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Three people passed a person who had been robbed and left for dead. I'm sure you know the story. The two supposedly "moral" people both kept walking, while the "evil" Samaritan stopped and helped. Jesus said go and do likewise.

Anyway don't worry. What he taught you was not Christ-like in any way. If you strive to live as Christ, follow HIS word, not people who may be "blind" or less evolved, who will teach un-Christlike things in the name of Christ (happens in EVERY Christian denomination).

Now, my husband hanging out with a single female at home, this would all depend on how we are doing in our relationship, whether or not he is a flirt, and whether he is generally trustworthy.

Good luck!




Luke 10:30-37 Jesus answered, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, ‘Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.’ Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?" He said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

I'm not sure what a randy hippo is and I am still naive enough not to fully understand the earlier photocopier reference.

Anyways. What I mean is that the mormon programing was so entrenched in me that I occasionally find my judgment clouded by it to this day. It permeated all aspects of my life. I took it so seriously. Where once my life was guided by a list of dos and don'ts, now I try to make decisions on principles. But the black and white world of morality I lived in keeps trying to rear its head.

That's why it is helpful for me to look back and wonder how I might have lived or behaved differently with the enlightenment I now have. That is why I asked for peoples reaction. My world was so warped that I may need some idea of from time to time of how others handle three issues now. Perhaps this is an unfortunate byproduct of being told how act by church leaders my while life. OK. So I am slothful.

I have to take some responsiblity myself and I do. But this is a recovery from mormonism forum, so my focus is its effect in my life.

A larger issue is that Mormonism really messed up how I interact with the opposite sex in general. Guilt complex. Sexually repressed. For example, the law of chastity contributed to me freaking out and breaking up with my first girlfriend after we made out once. Worried we were "going to fast". Being alone with my fiance at her parents house late at night. Talking with another married woman in the hallways at church. Forbidden. Maybe it was more me than mormonism, but I attributed it to the teachings of the church.

guilt guilt guilt guilt guilt. Be gone I say!

As a woman and a human being, I would be disappointed in my significant other if he didn't offer assistance to a woman in that first scenario.
The second scenario was a programmed over-reaction on your part. You needed a ride home. If a man can't be trusted to behave himself for a 3-hour car ride with a woman, then the couple might want to re-evaluate their relationship.
The third scenario - completely inappropriate.

I think this church policy reflects the state of the typical mormon marriage. Most Mormons marry each other because they look good on paper, not because they can't live without each other. When a marriage isn't based on love, friendship, and a deep connection, people are bound to make mistakes and act in ways they wouldn't otherwise. Obviously, the church philosophy of get married quickly and breed like crazy is damaging to most Mormon families. IMO.

This rule is basically saying Mormons are judgemental so to combat that, you must avoid any appearance of evil even if it means being unchristlike and rude. I would be much more apt to judge some yahoo who wouldn't give the lady a ride home, then think that this joker is acting questionable.

I am apalled that nobody in your meeting told this guy that he gave the most ridiculous hypo and they're probably dumber after hearing his advice.

I think that you were overreacting with the long trip, but that is just because you were dumbed down with HC's advice.

and I spent at least forty hours a week on the road in the company of only my trainer. He was a guy in my ward who hadn't been raised in the church (and consequently wasn't living in constant fear that being alone with a woman would necessarily result in sexual impropriety). I was an active nonbeliever, and although I was a little unsure at first, I quickly realized that it is wildly dysfunctional to view every person of the opposite sex as a potential sex partner, and treat them accordingly. Why can't we just be people, instead of sex objects to be avoided?

Anyway, we worked together effectively for over two years and became really great friends. When folks in the ward found out that we worked together so closely, no one spared me their concern. It seemed that everyone was in agreement that it was entirely innappropriate and we were putting our eternal families at risk. I can't even count how many people in that ward made it their business to warn one or the both of us. Some nosier folks even took it upon themselves to chat with our spouses about it. We had some great confrontations to laugh about.

Anyone who knew us and our marriages should have realized there was no cause for concern, but even some of our closer friends felt like we needed to be reminded that we were skating on thin ice.

We thought it was funny, and I'll admit that I did enjoy the scandal of it. There was absolutely nothing going on. Our spouses both enjoyed our friendship as well. We used to have dinner together at least weekly.

One of the sad consequences of Mormon sexism and toxic attitudes about sex is that it makes it well nigh impossible for men and women to see each other as people first. Mormonism eaches us to be cautious in a way that renders each person a gendered sex-object instead and really that attitude has to cause or at least influence, in part, the problem they're so concerned to prevent.