If the morg were going to spend their money on anything, I would rather it be malls and condos than temples and churches.

I can at least use the mall, and it will be providing a lot of jobs to salt lake city. Churches and temples don't provide any jobs. I can understand that 4B is too much for a mall and the church will have more control downtown or whatever but to me, it is better then another conference center.

I know I am in the minority here, but I am kind of excited for the mall. You may flame me if you choose.

I obviously would rather that they give it all to charity but that realistically is t going to happen. I am just saying I prefer a mall over much of the other stuff they use their money on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 11:44AM by artvandalay.

They have said that nearly all of their money is going to charities, and helping natural disasters. And instead. They build a mall. That money came from somewhere, and I'm ASSUMING(big assumption, possibility of being wrong), that it came out of member's pockets. If I'm paying tithing, I want it to go to church expenses. Charities, etc. Not some freaking mall. But since the church doesn't let you track your tithing. The world will never know.

That's why I'm ticked about it.

I thought Christianity was supposed to be all about being charitable. If they are going to use the profits from the mall for helping to feed, clothe and educate the disadvantaged, then I think it's fine; however, it seems like they do very little to help the poor (relative to the church's size and assets) and are constantly reinvesting their money to build a larger and larger empire--supposedly in the name of their god, but really for self-glorification!

Also, if the Mormon church is going to be involved in "worldly" projects like this, where the (alleged) values of their religion are being flouted, they are being hypocritical. For instance, I understand that liquor will be sold on the premises (not surprising) and I imagine that many of the shops will sell other items that are discouraged by the current teachings and philosophies of Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 11:39AM by Fetal Deity.

You're right. I would like to see them give more to charity. I guess what I am trying to say, if they're going to use the money to build a big temple, I would rather they use it on a mall.

It is funny how when I was tbm I thought the church gave a lot of money to charity and I would prefer donating to their charities because I knew it was going to where I wanted. Now I am not so sure.

AFAIC it seems that TSCC is abusing its tax exempt status by doing way to much for profit stuff.

First of all, it shows that they are liars. They have sunk $3-5 billion in a project that was dubious before the real estate market collapsed. They claim all their money goes to the Lard's work. How is the church supposed to be a development company?

Second, it shows that they are not truly inspired. Any savvy analyst, including an amateur like myself, could have told you that the real estate market was going to burst, and that malls are a lousy investment in the 21st C.

Finally, they are causing real hardships to members. They fired their janitors, some of the poorest people working for them, and now want people who already give 10% of their incomes to scrub toilets for them.

It just shows that a church that pretends to speak for Christ is one of the worst of American corporations. They abuse their customers and lose money on bad investments. It is a huge indictment of their money-grubbing, greedy ways that rob members of their savings to throw away on speculative investments. The poor members, who have been trained from birth to trust these people, think their money is going to charity and to build the church, not to sink into malls and condos that lose billions.

I wonder how much money LDS, Inc. lost in the Florida and Nevade real estate markets.

No criticism you do make some points. However, I think the mall represents to most of us here on the board, a total lack of sensitivity to the poor and needy. Churches historically help people with the money they collect. This church built $1,000,000,000 malls. It's like having a gourmet dinner in front of a starving person. How many immunizations, freshwater, medical and dental care would four billion dollars by?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 11:33AM by get her done.

Why don't you write them and see if they could save the starving children that I saw in the Philippines. I don't think I could walk that mall and not see the eyes of the child that died in my arms that was in the orphanage.

I can understand that. It is annoying how the church is so secretive with their money, and then they go behaving like a business building junk. I can see the hypocrisy within the church, but personally I hope they use all their wealth on these type of ventures and for charity of course. But we all know that isn't going to happen very much.

The church is building a meetinghouse by my house right now. I would be much happier if they were building a couple restaurants and a bowling alley. In fact, I might write the church and suggest they do that instead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 11:38AM by artvandalay.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 12:23PM by MJ.

What would Jesus do with 4 Billion dollars? The church says that it is Jesus Christ's restored church on the earth today. The prophet allegedly speaks directly to God. With all of the suffering in the world and all of the suffering within the membership of the church, I don't belive for a second that God would say, "I command thee, my servants to build a mall. Sell overpriced clothing and vain jewelry therein. Red Robin is very pleasing unto me, therefore place one next to the Chic Filet." I agree that a mall is more useful than a temple or another historical site, but when you have members who can't pay their mortgages, BYU students on welfare, and are laying off you paid staff left and right, I think someone truly Christ-like could think of something even better to do with that money.

When you frame the issue as "mall versus temple" I suppose there is some validity to your argument. But how about:

Mall versus hospital?
Mall versus school?
Mall versus homeless shelter?
Mall versus food bank?
Mall versus thrift store for the needy?
Mall versus free health clinic?
Mall versus just about any compassionate, charitable thing you can think of?

How does that work for you?

What if instead of building malls, they told members to tithe only on their interest, not their gross? What if they reduced tithing to 5% instead of 10%? How many LDS families would be in better financial shape?

What if they were more generous to members and helped them out? What if they said, "We will now pay for all missions!", relieving members of tens of thousands of dollars in burdens?

What if they built a BYU in Latin America and made it nearly free for church members, or at least affordable by their standards?

The things I could do with $4 billion to make the world a better place for LDS members! I certainly wouldn't sink into a white elephant like a mall/luxury condos.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 11:48AM by axeldc.

Every winter thirty to fifty people die on the streets of Salt Lake City from causes related to homelessness. Within blocks of the great and spacious buildings are real people suffering from homelessness, hunger, drug addiction, poverty, lack of education. The local shelter is trying to raise $5 million to build a campus to provide transitional housing, meals, health/dental care, addiction counseling, and food pantry.

Drive around SLC and make note of who is providing shelter, drug addiction counseling, free medical/dental services, free meals and a food pantry? Not the LDS church.

TBMs say it's okay because tithing isn't being used to build the mall. Of course, they can't know that because TSCC doesn't make it's financial statements public. But to me that is beside the point. Is a mall (or a hotel/housing development in Hawaii or a game preserve or......) an appropriate use of the funds available to a church who claims to be Christ's only legitimate representative on earth?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 11:56AM by caedmon.

The homeless can sit in the mall and keep warm, until the security goons chase them out into the snow.

(I hear my mothers voice in my head saying:)

They wouldn't have all those problems if they had just made better choices!

Foremost in my mind are:

1. Cost over-runs.

2. It's already in the red and doesn't appear to have the ability to ever be in the black.

Ron

I don't have a problem with charities having profitable businesses as a means of support.

For instance, I like to buy "Newman's Own" food products. The products are high quality, tasty, and ALL profits after taxes go to support educational and charitable institutions. It says so right on their bottles! It also says that they have donated more than 200 million dollars thus far.

Will we ever see such a sign on the Great and Spacious Mall? "All profits donated to charity! More than X dollars donated so far!" I seriously doubt it. My sense is that the money will just be rolled over into more real estate projects, because that is what seems to be the priority of the Morg leadership right now.

The Morg by any standards is a very rich church. They demand 10% tithing from the membership in return for certain, mostly intangible benefits. The Morg doesn't have even remotely the expenses of most other Christian churches, since they do not pay for ministers, youth workers, administrative workers at the local level, etc.

The Morg is also notoriously cheap with what it returns to its members. Gone are the days of lots of fun activities for church members (as detailed on another recent thread.) For every person on this board who has reported receiving financial or food assistance from the bishop, there are at least as many deserving, contributing members that were turned away. Members are exhausted by callings, sometimes multiple callings, and are now even required to clean the building. Church leaders warned members at the start of the current recession that they were not to expect help from the church. And the church's donations to charity are pitiful with regard to the likely revenue generated by tithing. There is no sense that the Morg would have charitable purposes in mind when it comes to revenues generated by the mall/condo development.

The lack of financial transparency, the inability to rationally account for spending, the poor record of charitable donations, and the authoritarian atmosphere which discourages the membership from asking questions all put a huge question mark on the mall project.

...because it is a complete hypocrisy.

The Church tells it's members to give generously but in turn gives hardly anything (in relative terms) to the poor and the needy.

The Church tells it's members (and it's a stated article of faith) to be honest on their dealings with other people, yet in turn refuses steadfastly to publish any form of financial accounting.

The Church tells it's members to live humbly and yet in turn installs fire fountains and retractable roofs and multiple million dollar apartments in a 'commercial' project that (even if all the condo's and units are sold/let) will lose upwards of a billion dollars.

LDS children are dying of malnutrition (there is an article about it on Mormon Times) and yet the mall is a bigger priority for the Church's funds.

The Prophet stated that no tithing funds were used, as a way of telling members not to worry about the mall. So where did the funds come from? Investment profits? Commercial profits? And if they did, what funds were used to start those investments and commercial projects? Tithing and donations.

Apart from that, I can't see why anyone would object to the mall...

Ok. You have all persuaded me that the church could use their wealth elsewhere.

That being said, I may be a terrible person because I am still looking forward to the mall. I live close to SLC and I like seeing all the construction.

Technically, you part funded it, so enjoy...

I hate the mall because I hate to see ANY real estate or businesses controlled by TSCC.

"I can at least use the mall"

When an organization sets itself up as a church that is the one and only church of Christ - to be a light unto the world, a refuge of peace, and the embodiment of CHARITY, then SUCH AN ORGANIZATION DOES NOT BUILD A 4 BILLION DOLLAR MALL*. Case Closed. Doing so is pure unadulterated hypocrisy. There is no "I" in LOVE. TCOJCOLDS could have taken this money and helped the poor and needy of the world. By their fruits ye shall no them. The Q15, the 70's, the presiding bishopric, the RS, adn other administrative elements of TSCC are to concerned about "I" and the "they" the poor and the needy are left by the wayside in Christs church? While the workers were laying the carpet, and installing the chandelliers, the people of Haiti were suffering. Would have been nice to have pluncked 200m into aid to that country? I mean seriously. TSCC doesn't even offer a soup kitchen, anywhere. Happy shopping.
*upper case for emphasis only.

I do see your point, but subtlety doesn't work here, does it! Thanks for the opportunity to let us rant.

I hate it because it will eventually provide them with a long term income stream that will make them even less dependent on members.

I'm sure they wish they had finished it a few years earlier, but even now it could pay off for them.

Once they are more independent of those pesky tithepayers, they have no incentive to listen to the government when it comes down on them, they are less vulnerable to a people's revolt, and they will never go bankrupt and die.

I am not an accountant, but as far as I understand it, passive revenue streams (like those from renting land or buildings) can go directly back to non-profit, religious organizations without incurring tax liabilities.

So, the law sees a difference between active revenue streams (like selling books and taking in money for other products), and passive revenue streams. A Catholic church can own a vacant lot they rent out as a parking lot. The rent income is not taxed because it's passive income derived from a resource the non-profit org owns.

I think the LDS Church sees the end coming, and I don't mean the End Times. They see their base shrinking, and they are desperate to set up passive income streams that will be viable for a long time. These passive income streams can be used to support the General Authorities and the LDS Presidency when all the sheeple have recognized the con and left the church, and stopped paying tithing.

I think that the GAs, as evident in Dallin Oaks, are also prone to paranoia about the big, bad, secular world taking away their power. They want a little city/Vatican of their own where they can be safe. If it were possible, they'd make their piece of Salt Lake City into a diplomatically-recognized separate country, one from which miscreants could not be extradited to be brought to justice. Make it into the Jesus Mall area and you are safe from prosecution, and from ridicule.

I do think that they have miscalculated in this case. The building of the Mormon Vatican may bring them down. It will be a close call though. After all, they've been stashing away billions for years. They have agricultural subsidies from Europe for farms in the United Kingdom; they have agricultural subsidies from the U.S. along with tax breaks for raising cattle for supposedly charitable purposes. They have passive revenue streams from water rights. They are working the system hard and always in danger of getting caught because they push the ethical boundaries.

But they're so special that anything Heavenly Father allows them to get away with must be okay, must be blessed by and approved by God. Right?

And they practically starve the missionaries! Some only get a fraction of what their families pay to the church. The morg doesn't care about its "flock"...they only care about their stock!

Heresy, I see that you and I came to the same conclusion. But you were much more succinct.

Your comment wasn't up when I posted mine.

notamomo, your point that TSCC doesn't really care about the flock was the painful realization that Peter and Mary Danzig came to when they were being disciplined.

It was so hard for the Danzigs to believe that their church "family" would turn on them. But the church only uses the "family" language as a control mechanism. Church leaders seem to think of themselves as masters who have to maintain control over their flock, not as equal members in a famil.

http://www.chinoblanco.com/2010/11/hi-my-name-is-peter-danzig-and-im-ex.html

It just shows that the Mormon church wouldn't know Jesus Christ if he walked up and tried to sell them Amway. Spending billions on a mall is precisely the opposite of what the Jesus of the New Testament would do. It's proof that they aren't what they claim. It's incredible to me that people are still sending them their money. What's it going to take, guys?