Yesterday (http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1126736,1126882#msg-1126882) Momonthinker said the following: "Most Critics don't argue whether or not LDS is Christian. Non-issue for us at MT as far as we are concerned."

With due respect to Mormonthinker and his excellent work, I'm going to say that I don't think that is as clear he thinks. I think it would be wise for the LDS church to clarify it's relationship to mainstream Christianity.

The following is from a previous post: http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Thoughts-on-LDS-Reform


At the time of writing the first draft of this note, there are two members of the LDS church running for the Presidency of the USA(2nd draft, down to one), and so there has been a lot of attention focused on Mormonism, and one of the first questions asked is regarding whether the LDS church is a Christian religion.
The answer to that question is that Mormonism and the other Christian religions are utterly incompatible. Therefore, if any other religions are Christian, then Mormonism is not; if Mormonism is Christian, then ALL OTHER RELIGIONS are not. This is admittedly a very strong statement to make, but it will be supported below by strictly LDS sources. No allegedly “anti-mormon lies.”
The very foundation of the LDS church requires all other religions to be abominations in the sight of God.
The canonical version of Joseph Smith’s First Vision (written 1838, published 1842, allegedly happened 1820), has Jesus Christ himself calling all other Christian religions “all wrong; and … an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt” (Joseph Smith History 1:18-20). Later, Jesus again, dictating to Joseph Smith, says that Mormonism is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased” (D&C 1:30-31).
The “only” true and living church? What about the other churches?
[T]here are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. 1 Nephi 14:10
The sine qua non of Mormonism is that all other faiths are illegitimate: “Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl).
Prior to 1990, the Mormon Temple ritual portrayed Christian ministers as hirelings of Lucifer, who tells the minister that they will be well paid if they can convert people to the preachers orthodox religion.
Church leaders have likewise said that all non-Mormon Christianity is of the devil. George Q. Cannon, while he was serving as 1st Counselor to Mormon Prophet John Taylor: “We belong, because of our obedience to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, to what is known as the Church of Christ, while those who have not embraced this Gospel and entered into covenant with God, belong to the other church—that is the church which is called in the revelations of God, the whore of all the earth, or the mother of abominations. That is the distinction which exists between the Latter-day Saints and the rest of mankind.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol 25, pp. 362-363).
John Taylor, while an Apostle in the church, said "We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167). Following which, Brigham Young sealed the deal: “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, pg 176).
Joseph Smith made it quite clear in the temple ceremony that Christian pastors were in the employ of Satan, but he also stated so, explicitly: “What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270), and that “...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)
What did the fathers of Mormonism think of Christian people? We’ve already seen what the first prophet thought. Was the second prophet’s attitude different? Brigham Young says, “The people called Christians are shrouded in ignorance, and read the Scriptures with darkened understandings.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.333).
Third Prophet John Taylor? “Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast…What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God." (Journal of Discourses 13:225). “We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his …. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 167). “The present Christian world…is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters…`There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.” (Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811).
If, as is stated above, the very reason for the foundation of the LDS church was the illegitimacy of Christianity, we might ask if, over the years, the position of the church has changed, and whether Mormonism now accepts the validity of non-Mormon Christian denominations. Sadly, no. And if we look at the statements of recent heads of the church, we see this stated explicitly.
President Spencer W. Kimball (the President/Prophet from 1973-1985) says: “This is the only true church ...This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves." (Spencer W. Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.421)
President Kimball’s successor, Ezra Taft Benson (President/Prophet from 1985-1994) likewise says that we are not part of the same category as the Christian churches: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165).
Apostle Elder Bruce R. McConkie, one of the most respected recent theologians of the church, says it as explicitly as is possible: “Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Protestants, and the Church itself is not a Protestant Church. The true Church is not a dead branch from a dead tree; it is a living tree planted again by revelation in the vineyard of the Lord, and it shall grow and flourish long after. (Mormon Doctrine, p. 269)
In most Christian faiths, salvation is relatively independent of which church one is a member of; most Episcopalians would not have a problem believing that a Lutheran or Baptist can go to heaven, and vice versa. Not so in Mormonism. In the LDS church, membership in the church is essential for salvation, and “[t]here is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
So what about those who are baptized into other faiths? Will a loving and understanding God not honor these acts of faith? President Charles W. Penrose, who served as a Mormon Apostle and as 1st and 2nd Counselor in the First Presidency of the church lays it out for us: “Every baptism of the Catholic Church, and of the Episcopal Church, and of the Baptist Church, or any other church, if God Almighty did not ordain and authorize the man who performed the ordinance even though he performed it in the right way and used the right words, is null and void…” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 25, p.339)
And the prophet, president Spencer W. Kimball, goes even further: it’s not only meaningless, but “[p]resumptuous and blasphemous are they who purport to baptize, bless, marry, or perform other sacraments in the name of the Lord while in fact lacking the specific authorization.” (found in the horribly misnamed The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 55).
But wait, there’s more. Not only is the Mormon church necessary for salvation, but so is Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is necessary for the salvation of all. Brigham Young makes it clear that "..no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289), and if you don’t accept this you are anti-christ: “he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312).
This is not some quaint 19th century position. It was taught well into the 20th century. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that there can be "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).
Bruce McConkie agrees: "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
This principal was taught explicitly as recently as 1988. The 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide (p. 142) quotes George Q. Cannon as saying “"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith].”
Some critics of Mormonism have tried to argue that the Jesus of Mormonism is not the same Jesus of traditional Christianity. President Gordon B. Hinkley implies that these critics are not entirely off the mark: “They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say… (Ensign, May 2002, p.90). Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explains why. The Jesus of traditional Christianity is mythical: “Virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ" (LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, in Mormon Doctrine, p.269).
President Hinckley does not mince his words: “The traditional Christ of whom they [non-Mormons] speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this, the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (LDS Church News Week 6/20/98, p.7)
To summarize:
• The sine qua non of Mormonism is that all other Christianity is invalid, an abomination to God.
• All other Christianity is inspired by the devil, the leaders are corrupt, and the followers ignorant.
• There is no salvation in any of the other churches. Their rituals are blasphemy.
• Mormonism is not part of the same category as the traditional Christian churches.
• You have to be a member of the LDS church to get into heaven.
• Joseph Smith has to approve your entry into heaven.
• The Jesus of Mormonism might not be the same “mythical” Jesus of Christianity.
Does this sound like Mormons are Christians? Hence my answer to the question of whether Mormons are Christians: If Mormons are Christians, then NO ONE ELSE IS! If those who call themselves Christian are Christians, then Mormons are not.
In recent years, observers have suggested that Mormonism is softening its position, trying to align itself more with traditional Protestantism. If so, part of this project of mainstreaming needs to include disavowing those doctrines that make Mormonism incompatible with mainstream Protestantism, doctrines like all other churches being an abomination to God, the necessity of LDS membership for salvation, and the necessity of being judged by Joseph Smith.

This issue has been around for some time, and I think it conflates two disparate concepts:

1. Whether the LDS church is Christian

2. Whether the LDS church is part of some community of Christian churches

I think the principles of Christianity are so loosely defined and the range of orthodoxy is so broad, that most any church can be reasonably labeled "Christian" if it says it believes in Christ. There are wacko extremist "Christian" churches and there are pretty loose and easy Christian churches. Who gets to say yes or no? (TSCC smartly recognized this when they started emphasizing JESUS CHRIST in their logo.) So why not them too?

But I do believe there is a community of Christian churches that TSCC is not part of. For all the reasons you listed, TSCC has opted out by declaring all other churches an abomination.

But they will do (and are doing) what they always do when historical events and teachings don't jibe with current expediency: They will ignore it, they will say "That was then and this is now," and they'll say those guys were "Speaking as men."

The only group that argues that Mormons aren't Christian are the idiot evangelical christians. Other Christian churchs (catholic, greek orthodox, restorationists) don't seem to care. I agree with mormonthink-- it's a non-issue.

Excuse me, but I completely dispute your claim. It's not just "idiot evangelicals" that call Mormonism a cult and "not Christian." I've heard it from Catholics, Episcopalians, Eastern Orthodox, Methodists, Presbyterians...and those "idiot evangelicals." If it seems like they don't care, it's because Mormonism, in the big scheme of things, is a pimple on the butt of Christianity. The non-evangelical crowd simply doesn't care to waste the energy that many evangelicals do in countering an insignificant, obviously counterfeit version of Christianity.

How, when TSCC claims it is the "only true Church," can it be part of the larger Christian religion? That's something, historically, that Mormon leaders did not claim for Mormonism. It seems to me that what TSCC is saying is that it is the ONLY true Christian religion. All the others are apostate Christiandom. This isn't me thinking this up, but many Mormon leaders from the very beginning of the church. It's only recently that you see so much longing to belong on the part of the Morg. The real relationship of Mormonism to mainstream Christianity, as historically taught by Mormon leaders is this: "We (LDS) are the only REAL Christians...these other sects are not." In fact, I've never even heard an LDS sacrament meeting talk or Gospel doctrine teacher even refer to Christians as anything but "these other sects."

So, it occurs to me that if "idiot evangelicals" want to say that Mormons aren't Christian, they are simply returning the same courtesy that Mormonism extends to non-LDS Christians.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2014 10:16PM by stillburned.

I agree with hangar18. Most people don't know about a lot about Mormonism. As true as the statement about Mormons being insignificant is, it isn't just that they are insignificant that makes people not care about them. It also takes time and effort to care about Mormons.

I can understand it if someone takes an academic interest in Mormonism. For a non-Mormon religious person, however, that is outside of the norm. Exmormons care for obvious reasons, people living in Utah might also care for obvious reasons. Most regular Christians just don't care enough to educate themselves about Mormons. Idiot evangelicals, or people who are uncomfortably serious about their religion, might care about Mormons enough to do so.

"obvious counterfeit..."

What exactly does one have to do to create a counterfeit religion? What makes something like the Episcopalians a non-counterfeit religion? People have made the same claim of falseness or counterfeitness towards every religious group you mentioned. Also, I guarantee that the same argument you would make to claim that Episcopalians, Methodists, etc are not counterfeit could be made to claim that Mormons aren't counterfeit as well.

No, stillburned is WRONG. Mormonism is a small turd flowing in the rancid sewer of Christianity. Regardless of how different the mormon turd might look or smell, and regardless of how loud the other turds protest; the mormon turd is right there with them and is part of them.

You got it all figured out, don't you?

I am entitled to that say am a purple elephant all that I want, to anyone who will hear it. However, even the most casual observer can see that's a stupid-ass claim. So, whatever.

I agree with you stillburned. No way is it Christian. Even Mormons say they rarely talk about Jesus...even at Christmas for heavens sake. We speak of Jesus every Sun. in church and although there is a person who perhaps began our protestant faith, that person wanted no special light. It is always about Jesus. Mormons do not believe in the trinity and have all kinds of RULES to be worthy. Their Temples are more Jewish in nature. No Christian church I know needs a temple or work done in a temple or has rules for worthiness. No one who goes to a mainstream Christian church ever says anything about their pastor talking about Mormonism. It is not of concern to them other than to help all people see the true Jesus and his message of LOVE ONE ANOTHER. And we all know Mormons don't love one another (members of other churches) since we are an abomination in their eyes. But believe what you want.

Just because Mormons have the name Jesus in their title, doesn't make them mainstream Christian.

They are more akin to Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses than to other Christian religions, and should be treated as such

Eastern Orthodox Christians teach that Mormonism is not Christian. For one thing, Mormonism does not subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity. That's a deal breaker in Orthodoxy.

this is another item that teaches some LDS the mental gymnastics they're famous for.

On the contrary, I think it IS a big issue.

Mormonism is Christian in a moral sense only. Theologically, it is NOT a Christian faith. This is because it denies every "cardinal doctrine" of Christianity. It embraces a God who is NOT the creator of all, is merely an exalted man who advanced and progressed to BECOME a God....who has wives, parents, grandparents, etc, and who is NOT omnipresent or unchangeable. This in an anthropomorphic God, certainly not the Alpha & Omega as described in the Bible.

I agree with you. Mormonism is NOT Christian. From what I've read most Christian scholars reject Mormonism as a heresy from a theological point of view and politely refer to it as the fourth Abrahamic religion. Jews, Christians and Muslims may be sons and daughters of Abraham and believe in the same god but are different religions. The one thing they can agree on is that there is only ONE omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent god. Elohim a/k/a "Heavenly Father" is an ex-mortal, now exalted and deified being and Mormon men can become gods themselves with their own planets or universes to populate and rule over. I don't think saying "Mormons are not Christian" is an insult as it is a separate religion.

Their doctrine is of course different now than it was during the early days of the Church, but I've often felt that the organization was not entirely Christian because of the blood atonements.

They said that some things, including apostasy or adultery, could not be atoned by Jesus, but must be atoned by the sinner themselves.

To me, that's not a Christian concept, so I don't consider the Church of the early days to have been very Christian.

Spencer W. Kimball's quote from above:

--
»There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men.»
--

Meanwhile, TSCC builds a $1.5bn shopping center. Is it a church of God? If so, we have a much bigger problem.. ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2014 10:30PM by Facing Tao.

I believe Mormon think is going at what is the most effective argument. If Mormons want to believe themselves to be Christian, and call themselves that--fine.

There are all kinds of crazy groups that one could broadly identify as Christian. However, many people, including Christians, will strongly disagree with them. There are a variety of beliefs and practices under that tent.

However, if you keep that tend broad for the term Christian. It is also good for the term Mormon, which I would also lump the FLDS and the like into. LDS, Inc. can't have it both ways.

The Mormon Church has severed itself from many mainstream Christian beliefs and activities, which is really their loss. But they still have some leg to stand on in making the argument.

But they are totally outclassed if one focuses on the question of whether founding claims of the religion related to the First Vision, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, eternal families and the like are valid. Those are clear losers. And if those things are losers, then whether the Mormon Church is Christian really doesn't matter.

If someone could be "saved" in any Christian Church (if you believe that's necessary), then why bother with all the hoops you have to jump through with Mormonism? The only reason to pursue this argument is a desire to threaten Mormons with hellfire and damnation.

Good luck starting a conversation with that!

I always found it hilarious when Mormon leadership would try to argue that the FLDS or any other fundamentalist Mormon group weren't Mormon. All they were doing was trying to distance themselves from a group that others associated them with and that were embarrassing. It is the exact same thing that Christians try to argue with Mormons. All they are trying to do is to distance themselves from Mormons and create their own club.

It is all arbitrary anyways.

Great post, Snowball! Couldna said it better.

As an aside on this discussion, I think it has been implied that evangelicals are somehow obsessed with Mormonism. I think that because the essential thrust of evangelicals (it's really what the word means)is to take seriously the Great Commission to take the Gospel to the world, they are presented with more incidents of confrontation with Mormonism. This serves to make "news" when those confrontations occur. Mormonism is hardly ever a topic of conversation or preaching in evangelical churches I am familiar, even in and around Utah. Evangelicals simply don't sit around obsessing about Mormonism any more than those in mainline churches do.

Yes, exactly. I have never even heard Mormonism mentioned from the pulpit at an evangelical church...in a few, rare, conversations, yes, but never from the pulpit.

Contrast that with my local ward that talks INCESSANTLY about "these other sects." They particularly love to ninny on about baptists--not sure whether that's because there are so many baptist churches in my area, or that Mormons particularly hate baptists. I believe it's the latter.

When I was a mormon I believed in Jesus. Period. Mormons believe in Jesus. Period.

Now, mormons believe things about Jesus that most christians don't believe, true, but on those points the bible is either silent or so vague that it comes down to an individual's interpretation.

Christians claiming mormons aren't christians are just arguing over what the true color of the emperor's new clothes really are...

<sarcasm>
No, you are wrong. There are several experts ON THIS THREAD who KNOW because of the burning in their bosom that Mormons aren't Christians. Your own experiences are irrelevant because there are real Christians out there who don't think that you are part of the club.
</sarcasm>

the Son is God and the Spirit is God.

The Bible is clear that Jesus is not the brother of Lucifer, who happens to be a created being...an angel.

The Bible is clear that that there is only one God.

The Bible is clear that faith saves, not works.

The God of Mormonism, the Jesus of Mormonism, is not that of the Bible.

The Gospel of Mormonism is not the Gospel of Christianity.

You can call yourself whatever you like but it doesn't make it so.

Oh, but those are just MINOR differences that aren't real clear in Scripture. So, see, we're Christians, too.

My butt.

Guess Mormons don't like to be on the receiving end of the same treatment they give non-LDS Jesus followers... you know, those people who are who are "all wrong" and whose "creeds are an abomination" (not that all Christians are "credal" in their worship).

Catholics aren't Christian
http://carm.org/is-catholicism-christian

Protestants aren't Christian
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html

Does anyone remember the whole Colin Powell isn't black and Bill Clinton is, discussion?

I am a purple hippopotamus. The giant pink rabbits say that they're the real purple hippos, and say that I'm not. It hurts.

See, you just showed that anyone can claim to be whatever they like...but everyone else can see the absurdity of their assertion!

So, Mormons can claim what they like...and the other 2 billion Christians can quite easily see the 15 million sure ain't much like the rest. Just saying.

I have often wondered if I could claim I am starting a church based on a Joseph Smith that I claimed visited Australia or some place like that...if I could call myself a proper Mormon.

I say give it a try! When people call you out on it, just act all offended and tell them that you feel the spirit of contention from them, and that's from the devil. Or answer any objection with, "That's already been debunked countless times..." or "I don't know that we teach that." Then ask for 10%. Seems like a scam, er uh, formula for success, that can run for generations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2014 07:21PM by stillburned.

"Grace only. Faith only. Scripture only. Christ only." These are the "solas", the basis for mainstream protestant Christianity, ("scripture only" meaning the OT & NT.) Apply these to mormonism and the differences are pretty stark. The premortal existance and exaltation are prominent divisive points, and the temple ordinances stick out. As much as TBMs attempt to frame it as "faith vs works", the reality is it's faith vs temple works, not the same as charity or service, regardless of how hard tscc strains to make temple work appear benevolent. Specifically, the endowments fly in the face of traditional Christianity; in the information age and with the number of disaffected and vocal exmormons, what-goes-on-in-the-mormon-temples is available to anyone who wants to know. Receiving tokens at the veil is enough for Christians to cry heresy. There was a time when tscc relied on these differences, used them to convince members that their church, and by extension their lives, were superior to that of their neighbors, and capitalized on these to proseletyze.

The real divergence though is JS. Even in the Community of Christ who reject BY and distance themselves somewhat from JS, he is the foundation. Catholics have the Pope and Protestants have their founders, but they aren't revered as JS is, and the identities of the rest of Christianity aren't bound up in their leaders and founders as the identities of TBMs are in the persona of JS. We were taught far more JS than we ever were JC. The allegiance and affection Christians reserve for Christ, mormons feel personally toward JS. And this might be the distinction between "church" and "cult". The effect is that when TBMs talk about "grace", it's a catch word- all of JS and mormonism contradicts the concept of undeserved love; faith is faith in JS or there is no mormonism. No surprise the recent essays were constructed to protect him.

When my doubts started to gel and I was convinced the BOM was JS's creation, heavily salted with scripture from the OT & NT, I still had traces of the affection TBMs have for JS. I gave him kind of a benefit of the doubt and thought what he meant to give us wasn't as much a restoration but a reconciliation between the OT and the New. That thought didn't last long. JS was the abomination, the great whore. He was and is the heart of tscc, Jesus Christ is more of an excuse. Christ isn't the head of mormonism, only the veneer. But even now, somehow it irks me a little to hear mormons called non-Christians. Maybe it's the memory of the truly decent TBMs I've known, but that comes with the understanding they would have been kind and loving people inside another church or no church at all.

armtothetriangle....I like how you put that....it is hard for you to refer to your affiliation as being "Non-Christian" due to the decent TBMs you knew. You are right in your assessment. They would have been great people if they had a different faith or no faith at all. You can not judge a religion (in this case an organization) by the people....only what their doctrine teaches in that faith. Always go by the teachings of the "church".