I have not being going to church for about three years and have been slowly trying to convince my wife and kids to leave too. The other day we had a long drawn out conversation and my wife basically breaks down and says "I cannot deny what I saw, I saw with my own eyes my grandmother and cozen in the temple..." These people both have been dead for a few years.

I have had some crazy spiritual experiences when I was drinking the kool-aid too, but I attribute them to delusion now that I have committed my self to the land of the real and questioning even the "promptings of the holy spirit." Learning by experience that "small voices" or feelings and etc when tested and looked from a practical stand point don't add up and often contradict each other, and frankly make me insane. I think basically if we want something bad enough and dwell on it for years our brains will create mysterious ways to make them come true for us - dreams, warm fuzzies, small voices and visions.

So... how have you fellow realists dealt with people who say they have had "visions?" What are ways I can help my wife see that these are delusions that her brain is creating?

and that was my kooky seminary teacher who tried to tell me I'd brought Satan to class.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,973903,974210#msg-974210

She talked a lot about having visions, and I'd sit and think "what a weirdo" and wonder why she never got in trouble for claiming to be psychic. I'd been taught that that kind of thing was from Satan and not the Holy Ghost.

Then again, I don't remember ever mentioning it to my parents, so maybe the other kids also kept it to themselves.

Oh, and my dad claimed to have heard an actual voice telling him to slow down, just before this dirt road made a sharp turn and we all would have gone hurtling off a cliff somewhere in southern Utah.

The seminary teacher was an extreme case, but I think most people who claim these types of experiences have put so much into convincing themselves that you're not likely to make a dent. They just really want to believe, plus it's dramatic and they enjoy the attention.

That doesn't mean much. These kinds of things have been fairly common place among native peoples and religious sects across the world throughout the history of mankind.

These things seem real to those who experience them. I think it's a combination of adrenalin, imagination, and fanciful expectations.

But so what?

They don't prove that God favors any one church over another.

Cheryl - Good point.
I think I will compile a list of different religions and myths that have miraculous claims and in a very serious and loving manner try to get her to ponder them...

I know at first she will totally be on the defensive and read the list with disdain knowing my motives, but I think it will plant the seed or spark some skepticism in the back of her mind that she will have to come to terms with. Thanks

If you do this, please let us know about it! I'll follow this thread so I get reminded.

Thanks!

Start with Joan of Arc. I just read a novelized account of her life. She believed so much in her visions that she was able to summon an army, put Charles on the throne and ignite the driving force that eventually pushed the Brits out of France. In the end, The Church burned her at the stake because she wouldn't recant her testimony of her visions. Now I don't know about you, but if I didn't really believe I'd seen something, I wouldn't be burned at the stake over it. So your mom can see visions all day long - means nothing about the validity of the Mormon Church.

Oops I meant your wife - sorry.

People have experiences like that outside of temples as well. However I don't think that anything you have to say will help, because your wife now associates that experience with going to the temple. It has confirmed the "specialness" of the temple in her mind. I think it would be wise to take a live and let live attitude.

As for your kids, my advice would be to (on occasion) openly disagree with church beliefs or policy. This models for them that it's okay to disagree with "authority" figures. It's a powerful lesson that helps kids to realize that their own opinion about religious matters has value.

They were there to warn her away from the Temple.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2660156/

Hallucinations are common.
Where do dreams come from?
These are not "real" but are common and "normal" so we call them "dreams." They are hallucinations.

If the brain can produce these entirely "in the head" - is it such a far fetch to "dream" momentarily -- while awake -- producing a vivid image that is "seen"?

Perhaps she believes dreams also are of divine origin.
Good luck.

The only visions I had were before joining TSCC. The HG was with me without moism. The mormon temples are tombs.

I had some strong feelings come over me while watching a voodoo ceremony. So I guess that means voodooism is the true religion.

It really seems unfortunate that experiences that are just part of being human can lead to strong spiritual convictions. Even worse are the people who exploit those experiences to put themselves in positions of power.

One of my friends claimed to hear shouts of joy every time she came up out of the font when she did baptisms for the dead as a teenager.

I should ask her what exactly she thought she heard, because she left the Church.

I'd ask your wife to describe EXACTLY what it was she saw. Did she see a shadow in the shape of a person? Like Martin Harris, did she see them with her spiritual eyes? Did she see a temple patron who looked exactly like them and decide that her dead loved ones were projecting their faces over theirs?

The only problem is that she might be encouraged that you're asking and think that she can reconvert you with this story. But it certainly is curious.

Death is no cure for ignorance.

Ghosts are simply confused dead people, hanging around where it is familiar.

These stories may be true; doesn't prove that the Cult is True...

ask her if she saw them with her physcal eyes or her spiritual eyes.

hallucinations can be a natural an healthy part of the human experiance. links to follow....

nevermind. you can just see what people on wiki have to say about hallucinations.

They were probably just passed out from boredom, not dead.

I was going to say something similar.

I saw plenty of dead people in the temple.

Well, I THOUGHT they looked dead. Then one of them passed gas (loudly) in their sleep.

I saw some compelling hypothesizing recently on the probability that JS used hallucinogen-spiked sacraments at meetings.
JS seemed pretty good with suggestion and other mind games.
Main evidence being the similarities of members experiences to some psychedelic plants of his area, and the fact that visions were very common among members up until JS died, when it stopped.

Possibly they occasionally still do his?
I cant think of better proof to a victim than a vision.
They dont have to know its artificial.
Seems plausible for LD$ inc.

I had a strong "spiritual" experience in Japan while with a group of Sokka Gakai.

I've never had a spiritual experience in an LDS temple. I guess that means Sokka Gakai is true.

Every religious cult assumes that their visions are from God. If anyone has the same experiences, they claim Satan or some other evil being caused them.

Easy mindless excuse.

I think you are going about this all wrong. The tone of your post is "My wife has a problem - how do I cure her?" Making a list of why she's wrong isn't the answer either. The problem with Mormonism is that it gets under your skin and burrows itself into your self-esteem. By trying to get her to give up Mormonism AND a belief in God and the afterlife, you are asking way, way too much of her. You are basically asking her to annihilate her soul all at once. You need to back off and take baby steps.

Like others have said, you should start by telling her that her experience is not exclusive to Mormonism nor is it proof Mormonism is true. If she wants to believe in God or an afterlife or spirit promptings - why can't she? Her point of view is just as valid as yours. No one knows for sure what happens next and you are as convinced you are right about your opinion as she is of hers. Let her hang on to her belief in God and point out other people have seen dead relatives or ghosts in other places like old houses, bars, railroad stations etc. and just because she saw her relatives in the temple, doesn't mean the church is true. Like another person posted, they may have been there to protect her.

But let her have her belief in God if she wants to. You are both entitled to your opinion and if you show you respect hers, she'll be much more likely to respect yours. If you treat her like she needs help, she's going to do the same right back at you and try to "save" you back to Mormonism. You would hate that so don't do the same to her. But do clear up the fact that every single spiritual event doesn't support Mormonism. Everyone has them. They aren't unique. They aren't a testimony of the church. Everyone feels the same way about their chosen belief system. Start there and see where she goes with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 09:37AM by CA girl.

Too bad there aren't Like buttons.

Tell her those are just the temple workers. They're are actually still alive, although many of them look like death.

? Can a dead person loan you $100?

This is insulting to everyone else in the same way that it is when people say god helped them win the big game or find the car keys.

Why did god let her granny show up? Why would he not let some really useful person return? Why has he taken my Dh and best friend of 40 years away? Am I not as important as her?

It is illogical. And by now it would be caught on camera somewhere.

Why does the temple spend so much time talking about the importance of not wearing mixed fabrics, but God can't take the time to explain germs, and why washing with soap is a good idea?

Far, far more people have seen their dead loved ones in their own bedrooms. I think that means that bedrooms are true.

My mom's side of the family were always seeing dead people, my mom was the worst, it seems her dead siblings wouldn't leave her alone. My Dad ate that crap up, or at least pretended to, I think she did it for attention, whatever she did it for it freaked the bejesus out of me as a little kid. I couldn't get up and take a pee in the middle of the night without worrying about some spooky dead uncle harrassing me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 11:43AM by ladell.

I have no answers. I have family members who also claim to have seen dead people with their own eyes. I usually ask them probing questions, like "what color hair did they have?" "could you see through them, or were they opaque?" "did you try to talk to them or shake their hand? because that's the first thing I would have done." What were you doing at the time, and how long did it last?"

I still have yet to get a single straight or reasonable answer from any of my questions, and more often than not the person I'm asking becomes offended and stops talking to me. I'm sorry for wanting details and confirmation. I'm sorry you're too emotionally attached to your interpretation of this experience to allow analysis, scrutiny, and alternate theories. I'm sorry if the more you reason about it, the more uncertain you feel with a need to fight against skepticism and investigation.

Sorry, I have no idea how to reason with these people.

If you see dead people in a temple, you should call the police!

"There is little difference between those who drink too much and see snakes and those who eat too little and see Saints."- Bertrand Russell

Btw was one of them Bruce Willis?




I dont think anyone asked that yet.

who has confessed to me that she is a lesbian. She is long-time married, in her 60s, etc. When my ex and I talked to her about why we no longer believe, I was rather surprised by how much she does know about the history, but she has had spiritual experiences in the temple that she cannot deny, so is still TBM.

What I love is when some of the Mormons use my own parents for their spiritual experiences, like telling my jack-mo sister that they felt my mother in the temple, etc. I told my sister to not let this stupid woman hijack her relationship with our mother. Even my mother wouldn't have bought into that bullshit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 11:59AM by cl2.

Is this a bad time to talk about the voices in my head?

I was once talking with one of the most intelligent TBMs I know, and told him I no longer believed in the church because the aggregate evidence, in all its forms (including spiritual), indicated that it was most likely false. He expressed understanding, and said that the reason he believed was because "in my estimation I have seen visions." I told him that certainly qualifies as a piece of evidence, subject to scrutiny like any other. He acknowledged that and we went on our way.