The Setting:
It was the early 80s, my ex-wife and I were visiting the SIL and her husband
(ex-wife's brother). I was an RM (and convert), was starting to have some doubts
and had discovered some disconcerting facts about TSCC.

Conversation:
Me: Just for my information, I'd like to ask the two of you a hypothetical question.
Let's assume the President of the church approached either one of you in private.
If the President of the church said, "I've received a revelation from the Lord.
He has commanded that you are to leave your husband and become my wife."
What would you do, what would you say to him?

Them: They both had that "Deer In The Headlights" look. You could sense
the discomfort they were experiencing as they struggled with the question.
I suspect their conscience was telling them to do one thing,
while their lifelong mental conditioning was telling them to
"Follow The Prophet, He Won't Lead You Astray."
When neither one of them would answer the question I knew, then and there,
TSCC was all about loyalty to it first, not the family.

I also knew, then and there, that I was in a freaking cult. Ugh!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2014 12:08PM by Moderator.

I told my dad about Joseph Smith's polyandry. He first denied it and told me I needed to consult source material, like journals and autobiographies, and not rumor or lies. After I insisted that those were the exact type of sources I had consulted, he immediately grew angry and asked me "if God asked you to do something really hard, would you do it?" My mom was sitting right there. That's when I knew my dad was in a cult.

At another time I was talking to my brother about genocide and infanticide in the Old Testament. I asked him if the prophet commanded him to kill my children, would he do it? He dodged the question by insisting it would never happen, so I had to assert, once again, that it HAD happened, right there in the scriptures, and was thus a perfectly legitimate and relevant question, so he answered "I'll cross that bridge if I ever come to it." That's when I knew my brother was in a cult.

Spot on... and to add

"the prophet has asked to take your 14 year old daughter as a


child bride..and yes' remember he would not lead you astray"


Yep... You are in a CULT

-------

btw the moment I knew it was boolshit was in the slc temple (circa 1970) and watched my dear father going thru suicide oaths.

The moment I knew I was in a cult was when I was chanting "PayLayAle" in a circle of people while wearing a green apron and a funny hat. For some reason, I stuck it out another 20 years.

Ditto. That was my moment (the temple) as well. Freaked me out and I stayed another 18 miserable years.

I was a slow learner. I only thought, "Gee, this is like something they'd do in a weird cult -- but I'm sure there's an explanation for it. After all, my parents aren't cult members."

But I eventually ran across the list of signs of a cult and realized, yup, I'd been raised in a cult by other cult members. But I'd already abandoned the church for other reasons.

I once tried this "hypothetical" question with a TBM friend - not specifically about his wife, as he was single, but I said something like if the prophet commanded him to kill somebody or something - and the response was, "but that would never happen." I tried to explain the concept of a hypothetical situation, but he just shook his head and said, "I can't possibly know what I would do because that would never happen." BLARG.

Was out for years, and never thought it a 'cult' until recently when perusing Richard Packham's website:

http://packham.n4m.org/cult.htm

Knew at that point.

I read about mind control and what attributes actually make up a cult and was able to list examples of the LDS church to each characteristic.

I was reading a book called "Persuasion"--there was one chapter about Jim Jones and how he was able to convince people to follow him. Right in the middle of the chapter, I fainted, the first and only time in my life. I think deep in my subconscious I realized I was no different than those who drank the koolaide. It took me a few more years to put all the pieces together, but that was the day and moment something inside me knew I was in cult.

My first time in the temple, while I was standing there pretending to slit my throat and spill my guts. While looking around the room at strangers, family, and friends all doing this in unison I was suddenly struck with the thought - "You ARE in a cult!!".

Of my 40 years in the church, that was the closest I ever came to "feeling the spirit" or hearing a "still small voice".

I know what you are saying about it being the only time that you heard "the voice"--haha--except it wasn't saying what you were told it would be saying.

For me, I had it too, it was say, "You're in a cult. Oh, my god, you're in a cult" over and over. There might have been a, "Get out right now." Somehow I ignored that too, as I was pinned between my dad and older brothers who had all just driven 12 hours through a snowstorm to be there. God, I'm sooooo stupid. The one time I hear the voice and I disobey. Haha.

> The Exact Moment I Knew I Was In A Cult

The temple experience. Until then I had only known that TSCC was made up (but thought it was "relatively benevolent").

> TSCC was all about loyalty to it first, not the family.

Exactly right!

When Grant Palmer was forced out for simply gathering information to tell the story of 'Mormon origins', but made it clear that he wanted to continue to worship God at TSCC and live the Mo-commandments, without being required to believe in the authenticity of Morg correlated LDS history. Yet, he was still forced out. Learning of this story woke me up and I realized that I was in a cult.

I knew most of the facts about the church for a long time before I left - I just ignored them because I enjoyed that I felt the church had evolved into. If nothing else, I enjoyed the friendship of others in the ward, so if the church had a shady underbelly, I didn't really mind too much.

What started the downward spiral was tithing...not that I had any problem with it - I didn't (I do now that I know where the money goes, but I was a naive TBM at the time). The problem came when my never-mo mom decided that she wanted to do the right thing and pay tithing. Since she didn't attend a church at the time, she sent her tithing money with me each month. When I told the bishop about what she wanted to do, he was geeked and couldn't wait to share it with the other leaders in the ward. Over time, I started to notice the missionaries casually drop "mini-lessons" about the importance of a very generous tithe when they would come to visit me - something seemed fishy, but I just ignored it, thinking I was being paranoid. The tipping point was when my mom got a call from the bishop's secretary, telling her she had an appointment to meet with the bishop for a tithing settlement. I was fuming, and decided that no, I wasn't just being paranoid, the church was indeed trying to bleed more money out of my already financially-struggling mother. I called the bishop's secretary back and chewed him 5 ways to next week - he dropped some gems "well if she's paying an honest tithe, why does this appointment even bother you?" and "I think you might want to set up an appointment with the bishop yourself to discuss obedience and repentance." I thought that was a great idea, so I decided to visit the bishop at home. When I told him what was going on, he seemed visibly confused and upset. He told me that he had mentioned my mom in PEC earlier in the year - thinking it was awesome that she would want to pay tithing, but then just sort of forgot about it. After some digging, it turned out that the bishop's secretary (who had been pestering me for over a year to put in my paperwork to go on a mission, even though I was adamant that I had no desire) saw this as an opportunity to softball me a missionary-opportunity. He had been sending the missionaries, etc.

That's when it all started falling in place. They never had any interest in visiting my family, they only wanted another baptism...they didn't care that a non-member was giving a monthly donation to their church, they only wanted to make sure that it was enough. After that, church just seemed really creepy. The final straw was one night, when I was trying to explain my beliefs to a non-mormon friend, I actually took a step back and LISTENED to what was coming out of my mouth...I haven't been inside an LDS building since that week.

Heh. If you were in a cult, they would have answered "Yes, of course. The Leader has spoken".

Having cultic characteristics is not the same as being a cult.

That said, having cultic characteristics is not a good thing.

When I returned from my mission, and enrolled at BYU, one of my first classes was called "Totalitarianism." We studied Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Fascist Italy--with emphasis on the politcal conditions and social engineering methods common to all of them. We dabbled with Orwell as well.

I was shocked how similar totalitarian methods were to my mission specifically and church loyalty programming generally.

I have thought long and hard about this question (when did I first realize I was in a cult), and I never settled on a discrete moment. But this class--at the Lord's university, of all places--may very well be the beginning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 03:13PM by resipsaloquitur.

A couple years after my return from my mission, I read William Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." I was curious about what made the people do what they did.

I usually don't like making parallels from Nazi Germany to Mormonism, but while reading I found it to be a definite eye opener -- specifically about controlling information, propaganda, and manufacturing "spiritual/emotional" experiences.

I suppose reading Orwell's "1984" would have enlightened me in the same way, but I read that book years later.

During my endownment. The exact words came, whilst chanting the true order of prayer.'This is a cult. I'm in a f***ing cult! Oh my Lord! And then, after I vowed to give everything I own and will ever own to the church, I was like 'yip, it's a cult.' Never been so shellshocked in all my life.

Temple cult rituals--gut myself gestures. 19, mission call in hand or underway, and flanked by dad, with mom on the other side. At least I think they separated the men from the women, didn't they?

I had concerns about

Mormon prayer
Mormon priesthood
One True Church,

But temple cult rituals--I knew this was not as advertised. The rest became political/social. Why did my parents participate and enforce my participation? How do I get away from this without too much damage? The Mormon church did not/does not provide any helpful advice on answering either of these two concerns.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 03:59PM by gentlestrength.

Watching BBC's John Sweeney interview Jeff Holland--Strengthening Church Membership Committee?!

My exact moment occurred sometime during my reading of No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie. After following Joseph Smith from one scam to another and realizing that "revelations" were not about communications from God, but instead were all about authority, control, and money, the realization just hit me: "This is a goddam cult."

During that same period of time I was having a casual conversation with some non-mormon friends about our religious beginnings and I casually told them I was raised in a cult. I've made it a point to describe MY beginnings that way ever since.

Unfortunately I didn't realize LDS Inc was a cult until long after I left it because I don't think I fully understood the control and mental manipulation the organization employs on its members.

I suppose one of the first things that really bothered me which I should have recognized as a sign of a cult was the MTC. I thought we would be learning about the gospel and really digging into the scriptures and theology and so forth, but what it really was was a crash course sales training camp. And they would teach you mental manipulation tactics. I never felt comfortable with "trying to get the investigator to feel the spirit." It seemed so canned and manipulative.

When I realized the Church was not true, I still didn't realize what a cult it was.

When I discussed my reasons and evidence with Mormons, however,
then I realized it really was a cult. A group of people who
loudly claimed to be "honest seekers of truth," but became
either distant or belligerent when confronted with actual facts
that didn't fit their pre-approved beliefs.

Yes. I was walking the dog with my Mom. She said, "Can I ask you a question? Why do you feel the need to officially resign from your church? Why are you putting yourself through all of this hassle? When I left the Catholic Church, I just walked away."

It was a long road trying to get myself out. It tooks months.

I replied, "Because the Catholic Church won't try to track you down for the rest of your life, no matter where you go. They won't put you on their ward list, assign you visiting teachers and home teachers. They won't send the missionaries over to talk to you, or try to assign you a calling, to keep you coming to church. They won't assign you friends to try and bring you back in through their friendship."

My mother thought about this for a minute and then said, "That sounds more like a cult."

That's when a light bulb went off in my head and I exclaimed, "It is! It is a cult."

I'd always defended it against such a label before, until I was forced to see the difference between the Mormon Church and a mainstream church like the Catholic Church. The difference was glaring.

When I first got endowed, and even more so two days later when I got married in the temple... I cried on my wedding night because of it.

The first conscious awareness came the night I heard the tape on TV of Warren Jeffs coaching his child-brides on their "wedding night". His prophet-like voice of assuredness and the girls crying in the background forced me to see the connection between his behavior and Joseph Smith's. It was a chilling moment of realization.

Got to say the primary song Follow The Prophet!

PPs have got me thinking about a handful of conversations I've had post 9/11, if the prophet got up in conference and told everyone to become suicide bombers I believe a lot would do exactly that. I believed it even in my most TBM days. Equally we know they wouldn't, not today anyway. The church is too large and too public, anything untoward like the suggestions people have made in this thread would soon be shut down by law enforcement. They can't afford to do something so outlandish as child brides or even terrorism.

Just my thoughts.

there were a couple of 'lightbulb' moments, out the one that stands out from the others......
I was in a sunday school lesson and we saw a film about the death of holy joe at carthage jail
Afterwards, during questions, i remarked that the film didnt show that joseph had a gun.
I was called a liar and the accompanying uproar showed that this was a cult

It really was a big shock, such a creepy eye-opener. Probably my cult moment also although, I was thinking, "This is NOT of God!" the whole time. That big, expensive DC temple was built for THIS???

Also, the slow (unfortunately) awakening during sacrament that, "Why is every talk about J. Smith and Harold B. so-and- so and NOT Jesus?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2014 08:01AM by FreeRose.

First Temple Endowment.

Me too. First temple experience. Raising my arms chanting pay lay ale dressed up in weird garb. It felt so weird...