Where does the idea/principle/lie that obedience is the first law of heaven come from? I remember leaders talking about obedience, especially at youth events, but I don't remember any references or quotes on the subject? Does anyone know when it started or where it came from?

I grew up non-mormon and the gospel was about love, as in loving God, your neighbour and yourself. I often had a hard time thinking it was about obedience. I also had a hard time with the word charity replacing the word love in Corinthians.

Thanks,
D

May be from Joseph Smith here:

D&C 130


20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.


ugghhhhh creepy stuff.

in moderen days I dont know. However at the time when the sumarian tablets were being written in cuneform the gods demanded either obedience or annihilation.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> in moderen days I dont know. However at the time
> when the sumarian tablets were being written in
> cuneform the gods demanded either obedience or
> annihilation.

I'm familiar with Egyptian and Greek mythology/religion. I'm
less familiar with Babylonian and Sumerian mythology/religion.
Can you point me to a source for that?

The Old Testament JHWH demanded death for disobedience to
various laws (picking up sticks on the wrong day, disrespecting
parents -- you know, typical capital crimes).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 10:20PM by baura.

Baura:
This is a part of Tillengers book Slave Species of God.
He has huge reference sources at the back of the book.
I extracted this concept from several of the incedents he touches on.
It is an interesting read and I recomend it.
I have read it three times and I am trying to extract more empirical evidence by exhaustive checking of his references.

Ah, that's Däniken's stuff rehashed. I hadn't heard of Tillinger.

I believe this came from Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=b180767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

I absolutely hate putting a Morg link, but, this one will show you all you ever wanted (or didn't want) to know about this silly Mo-doctrine.

Interesting. No McConkie quotes on this lesson.

But that story about young elder Hinckly seems fishy to me. I wonder if it was true. And I'd love to know which book they were talking about, the name was carefully left out.

Thanks
D

“Obedience is the first law of heaven, the cornerstone upon which all righteousness and progression rest. It consists in compliance with divine law, in conformity to the mind and will of Deity, in complete subjection to God and his commands” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 539).

McConkie was full of it. One of the biggest BS'ers since the early cult leaders.

I know. Isn't that a horrific statement? And it gets quoted a lot in the Mormon church.

Wow. I think if I had heard that back in 1999, I would never have joined, no matter how important it was/is to DW!

They don't tell you that part of it when they are prepping you
for baptism, do they? They don't tell you about what the
Endowment ceremony will be like, do they? They aren't into full
disclosure like they'd be required to be if selling you some
stock. Being a religion they can do all kinds of things that,
in a lot of other areas would get them thrown in prison.

Exactly! I cannot tell you how peeved I am that I didn't know this stuff sooner and that it took so long for it to sink in. GRRRRR!

Wow. This is what I was looking for. Thank you.

"Obedience is the first law of heaven. Without it the elements could not be control[l]ed. Without it neither the earth nor those who dwell upon it could be control[l]ed. The angels in heaven would not be control[l]ed without it, and in fact without obedience there could be no union or order, and chaos and confusion would prevail. When we are obedient we may be guided to the accomplishment of all that is required of us by our heavenly Father, for it is on this principle that the designs and purposes of God are accomplished. The elements are obedient to his word. He said "Let there be light and there was light." He commanded the land and the waters to be divided, and it was so. When Christ commanded the storm to be still, and the sea to be calm the elements were obedient to him. The earth, and all the worlds which God has made are obedient to the laws of their creation, for this reason there are peace, harmony, union, increase, power, glory and dominion, which could not exist without obedience. For the lack of obedience the whole world to-day lies in sin, for except, the little existing among this people, obedience can not be found on the face of the earth. Go to the religions of the day, do you find obedience manifested by the people? No, but you find man everywhere self-willed and untractable, therefore confusion and anarchy reign. It is said in the Scriptures that all things are possible with God; but he only works in accordance with the principles by which he himself is governed; and hence he can not convince nations of the truth against their will."

(Smith, Joseph F., General Conference, Salt Lake City, October 7, 1873, found at: en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_16/The_Instructions_Given_Are_Intended_for_All_the_Saints,_etc. ) [I couldn't get the hyperlink feature to work; you'll have to cut and paste the URL if you'd like to see the quote on wikisource.]


I say "may be plagiarizing" because by the time McConkie used the phrase in Mormon Doctrine, it was basically an axiom of Mormon teaching.

It comes from TSCC being a cult, that's where it comes from.

Yup, it comes from guys who don't deserve to be obeyed wanting to be obeyed.

Christ said the first law is to love God, the second law is to love your neighbor.

If your going the Christian route, what Christ said would carry more weight than what some 19th century imposter prophet said.

Obedience is the first law in totalitarian regimes, never in a Christian church.

KJV--Matthew--22:
37:Jesus said unto him,Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind

38: This is the first and great commandment.

39: And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 07:34PM by thedesertrat1.

I'm sure the explanation for any such discrepancy is that BoM overrides the Bible as "it is of later revelation" and "more accurate". Meh, I think I take my chances with Jesus' words. ;)

Any cult has some variation on that same basic rule, why do you think cult leaders get so many ladies to....?

It comes from the depraved minds of every religious tyrant in history...

1. Convince people you speak for god.
2. Tell them god wants them to be obedient.
3. Tell them god wants them to obediently send money.
4. Profit!!!

5. Tell them god wants teenage girls to marry you.

From the mind of a megalomaniacal power crazed religious freak. JS is in bad company on that one.

Ron Burr

It comes from the fact that Cult leaders really want to be obeyed. Especially when asking fourteen year old girls for sex.

All good responses and funny ones too, thank you.

And that quote by Warren Jeffs, it could easily pass as a GA quote.

Pres Monson, re obedience, at the last April conference. He references some of the earlier prophets.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/obedience-brings-blessings?lang=eng&query=obedient

From that talk:
"There is no need for you or for me, in this enlightened age when the fulness of the gospel has been restored, to sail uncharted seas or to travel unmarked roads in search of truth. A loving Heavenly Father has plotted our course and provided an unfailing guide—even obedience. A knowledge of truth and the answers to our greatest questions come to us as we are obedient to the commandments of God."

Or... "Keep the blinders on, and do as we say."

> A knowledge of truth and the answers to our greatest questions come to us as we are obedient to the commandments of God.

Yeah, right. And *even if it did*, if TSCC information were true, it would have to mostly hold water. JS should've mostly been a man of decent character, and there mostly should not be any discrepancies in the "eternal and never-changing word of God". Since TSCC is a human-run system, it can be expected that some errors or problems exist, but when it's mostly problems with few good points thrown in, there's a much bigger problem. The entire story of TSCC is checkered with problems and inconsistencies from its inception to the present day, and one's not supposed to look anywhere else. That's just ridiculous.

Hitler's Wehrmacht.

thedesertrat1 posted:

KJV--Matthew--22:
37:Jesus said unto him,Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind

38: This is the first and great commandment.

39: And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self.


I was taught that we love God by being obedient or that our obedience is proof of our love for God. To be candid, I do not think this is much of a stretch, and why it is difficult for a cult member to recognize the glaring cultiness of such a call for obedience.

But Christ never said that we have to prove our love of god through obedience.

That's something Mormon leaders made up.

Reminds me of immature boys demanding "prove of love" from girls so they can screw them over.

Putting on my TBM dunce cap for a moment...


If you *truly* love God, then you would be obedient to his commandments. If you are not obedient, then you must not *truly* love God or your love has not yet been perfected, anyway. In addition, God has provided living prophets so that we can *know* his will [how convenient] and obey accordingly.

Alternatively, a girl can love her boy without having sex. There are many virtuous activities in which a couple can engage that do not involve sex. Furthermore, if a boy *truly* loves his girl, he would not *want* her to violate her chastity.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2014 03:34PM by facsimile3.