I can't sleep.
I believe my husband and I are good parents but we've had problems with our oldest for a few years now. He's got everything. He's so loved, he wants for nothing but more, more, more.
He's so angry. We walk on eggshells around him. He physically hurts his siblings daily, tells us he hates us daily and tonight he said he was going to kill himself.
I thought we could deal with it--we had some so-so counseling and tried several approaches, nothing reaches him. I can't sleep because I'm afraid he's going to kill himself now.
I will get back in with the counselor tomorrow.
I've been told by family and friends that this behavior is because we quit church. Has anyone else seen behavior swings like this in their kids that started around the time you left church?

This has nothing to do with Mormonism. This is something you need to discuss with a trained mental health professional. I'm no expert but I've read about similar incidences with children and it's almost certainly something that requires professional help. How sad that Mormons will feel the need to add to your burdens with their unChristlike behavior. That's just nasty of them. Good luck to you and your family. I hope you can find a good counselor that can help you find the answers.

I think you need to get him to a NON-LDS psychologist/psychiatrist ASAP (and if the one you're going to is not helping, then you need to get to another one who is used to dealing with children with serious psychological problems).

What you have described here is at LEAST a serious personality disorder--or it may be some kind of chemical imbalance in his brain.

Doesn't matter right now WHAT it is, just that he gets the correct treatment for it ASAP.

Take his suicide threats seriously, because they are very often serious...and kids his age DO know (or find out) how to do this.

I wish you, your son, and all of your family the best.

This is difficult, and I hope you find the right treatment for him very soon.

Look at the top of the "Message List"...to the sticky thread which is the second one down: the 24-hour Suicide Hotline.

Call them right now and ask for help for your son. They will be able to give you some direction.

Good luck, I hope you will find help for your kid. What makes it worse, is the TBMS blaiming you because you left Mormonism. That is the most absurd thing to say.

THis has nothing to do with the church. Big hugs to you! I grew up with a sibling who had mental health issues from an early age, violence, rage, acting-out, etc. It's a very hard thing to live with.

...have useful info. for you, at least some contacts in the child psychology community who might be able to provide your son and family with useful therapy.

To the best of my knowledge, Dr. Malan is still a member of the American Association of Suicidologists (ref. http://www.suicidology.org/home ). His office no. is (801) 334-8583 and the address of his practice is:

Malan Relationship Health
Ben Lomond Mezzanine Level M1
2510 Washington Blvd. Ogden, Utah, USA 84401

Another online resource is Psychology Today magazine (http://www.psychologytoday.com/ ).

Based on what you posted, I have to wonder if your son has been "loved" too much. He sounds like a little emperor and needs to be put in his place, IMO. His outrageous behavior (acting-out) is completely unnacceptable. I think you'll find that a child psychologist would tell you and your husband that you cannot "walk on eggshells" around him.

With guidance from a child psychologist, you'll probably need to set clear guidelines for him, with an articulated (to him) scale of punishments if he does not comply. Physical punishment (e.g., spanking) administered in a disciplined manner might be one of the behavior-modification techniques required if he won't stop acting out so inappropriately. Far too many parents molly-coddle their kids.

When I was a Mormon in the 1980s, there was a family in the local ward with two incorrigible sons (ages 11 and 15). Their father was a 'nice'-yet-timid LDS man who would not discipline his boys, no matter how much trouble they got into. The mother also allowed them to get away with sh*t.

Finally, in an act of near-parental desperation (there were also two younger children in the family), the boys were put in an all-male school run by disciplined men who'd had military careers. They wouldn't stand for any BS and used a mix of rewards, punishments, and astute psychological handling to transform the pair of miscreants into decent young men.

Again, the perspective of a child psychologist would probably be helpful. Ultimately, you and your husband will need to lay down the law to your son, whether he accepts or hates it.

Good luck!

Good luck with this difficult situation.

No, I've not heard of these kinds of problems resulting from leaving a church.

I don't want to make light of any of this, but this boy shouldn't feel he can push buttons and tyrannize the family. He needs structure, limits, and consequences as expressions of parental love.

Here's the message I would emphasize:

"Son, I can't let you act this way because it hurts the family and you most of all."

I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for physical punishment. Not even for a child that is mentally ill. I saw my father beat & spank my then teenage sister who was mentally ill, and all it did was make things a trillion times worse.

Discipline needn't be abusive, physically or mentally.

Firm limits and consequences are a far cry from abuse.

"Walking on eggshells" is a poor strategy for children who are hitting and abusing other family members."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2014 09:35AM by Cheryl.

Discipline ≠ abuse.

When I think of discipline, I think of how my parents had me in a structured routine. I became DISCIPLINED enough to manage my time, juggling homework, chores and social life. These things require DISCIPLINE.

Don't assume anyone is referring to corporal punishment -- to me that isn't even discipline, it's just flat-out abuse. Discipline would be carefully laying out the rules and punishments so when the kid crosses the line, they know what punishment to expect, which could be time out, loss of privileges, isolation, community/public service, etc.

And yeah, the OP sounds like a psych problem, not a behavior/attitude problem. Get pro help.

If this child is being violent towards his siblings hitting him will not make it better.

As to the above comment, I can only second everything that has already been said, except to add that if the treatment is working he will almost certainly HATE it and resist treatment with all the might and guile his tormented young mind can muster...in the beginning. It already has been a battle of wills, and one that he has been handily winning up to now. If you truly love this child, as I believe you do, you must resolve yourself to be stronger than your child in EVERY way. You will certainly lose him, and possibly one or more other children in the process, if you do not find a path to loving parental dominance.

To your credit, you have already taken a most important step in reclaiming your positions as alpha parents by quitting an organization that stalwartly encourages life long infantile dependence upon the input of "those above you" (as if there was such a thing once one has reached adulthood) for even the most mundane decisions such as choice of underpanties, color of shirt and length of sleeve. Ridiculous.

As above, seek professional non-lds help immediately. (years ago, when seeking help I was asked, "Well first I need to know; ARE you consorting with demons?" Seriously? Idiots!)You will see that as you find and reclaim your personal and parental strength, your son's need to assert himself as the alpha family member will diminish...but not without a fight. But just by reading your post I believe you to parent who would walk into a burning building to save your children. Good luck.

Certain nutritional deficiences can bring on severe mood swings. Just a wild guess, but does juvenile diabetes run in the family?

I agree with CA girl - this is something that needs a professional child psychologist. Nice of the TBMs to blame you....so Christian like of them.
He may needs meds for s short time until it gets in control. I know how everyone hates children to take meds, but this situation sounds quite serious and a medicated child for a short time until things get settled down some is OK.

When my son was 12 he spent 30 days in a hospital that was for kids only. He had threatened suicide and it scared the crap out of me.

Like your child, he had everything that a parent could offer. He went to a good school, lived in a good home, had parents who loved him. We couldn't figure out what the problem was. I don't think he could articulate it. He didn't know himself what was wrong.

He has a high IQ, he's always had a lot of friends. But, in his head his world wasn't right. Chemical imbalance combined with the stressors of growing up came crashing together.

He was on meds and counseling for a couple of years. He's 31 now. He's found his niche in life. He's very very good at what he does for a living. He has a beautiful intelligent wife who adores him. They just bought a condo and are very happy. They're talking about having a baby. I couldn't be happier for the boy who once seemed so sad/angry/confused/ and broken.

The road was not easy. I had many tears and sleepless nights. I often wondered if he would have a future. I did everything I knew how to do to help him grow up to be ok. There's no magic instant solution. It was difficult to feel loving towards him at times. I was determined to help him no matter what it took. He was furious when I checked him into the hospital. For me, it was the first time I had a full night sleep in at least a year. I don't know who needed it worse him, or me. When he came ouut he was a muh calmer less angry kid. We still had work to do, but we got through it.

None of this NONE of this had anything to do with religion. Religion was barely even mentioned.

What a difficult time for you. I'm glad you were able to deal with it. Warm wishes.

But during his adolescence you were involved in mormonism? Or other religions? For some children, such an environment might be innocuous. For others, maybe particularly for smarter children, it could be suffocating.


I think the OP should not discount religion as a possible source of pain and confusion for her child. As a precaution, I'd stop all contact with family members who have implied leaving the mormon church is the cause of the behavior. People who would say this are not emotionally balanced and are unsafe for children. Play it safe and stay away from them while also obtaining professional help for your child.

As a long time teacher and parent, I can't imagine the fact of having been in a church for awhile as a reason for a child to hit his siblings and verbally abuse the whole family.

Why he's doing this is not an answer as to how to intercede and change the bad behavior.

Too many parents get lost in finding possible causes and don't get on with finding help to make a plan to help kids like this one.

I've read stories here on RFM about people who killed themselves. I've also read their loved ones assert that the mormon church teachings and growing up in a mormon environment were part of the reason. The stories of gay suicides are pretty convincing. I'd imagine before some of these gay children killed themselves, they felt angry, expressed hatred to their parents and maybe even hit a family member. But, I could be wrong.

You may be right. It may be that being raised in a religion did not result in this child being angry, hitting, expressing hatred for his parents and feeling suicidal.

I wouldn't take any chances. When someone is suffering get them professional help and get them away from crazy people while you're at it. But that's just me.

"I've been told by family and friends that this behavior is because we quit church."

Have you used an LDS or non-LDS counselor? I suspect you're family and friends will push you towards an LDS counselor.

I'd strongly suggest finding a non-LDS counselor.

I'm a teacher. Church is not causing this. Your son needs professional help and he needs it now. Contact the guidance or mental health counselor at his school today. Tell her everything that you told us, and that you need immediate help.

Take action and let us know how things proceed.

your son.

But you need a short, pointed response for the douche bags who would dare to blame this on your leaving the church. In other words, you need to take care of you and set a boundary so these people won't try to barf their toxic religion on you ever again.

It needs to be something that tells them that rather than shaming you, they have made you question their character, humanity, good sense, and whether or not you want to have a continued relationship with them.

Some suggestions (choose your favorite from the list, or write your own):

"WHAT?!!!" (Look at them like you think they are crazy. Or say it slow, accompanied by an angry, shocked and puzzled look. Make them squirm to justify themselves, and repeat the question with every successive stupid explanation).

"Did you REALLY just say what I think you did?"

"I can't even believe you would say something so horrible. Do you really believe that God would inflict such punishment and suffering on a child because their parents left a religion?"

"So you think our hardships are your evidence that Mormonism is true? Is that the best reason to be a Mormon? You DO know that Mormons are not immune to mental illness or suicide, right?"

"Clearly, you have no comprehension of mental illness. Please keep your ignorant opinions and religious judgments to yourself."

or finally:

"Don't ever talk to me that way again."


The most important thing is to focus on THEIR bad behavior. Don't argue with them about the cause of your son's problems. That's for the professionals to sort out, not the religious zealots.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2014 09:49AM by imaworkinonit.

Good replies.

Plus, I would try and keep it as private as possible. Other than what is visible to outsiders, I would not share your son's private business with them. He could feel embarrassed or ashamed about that. Also, be careful what he hears. If he has heard some of these accusations about the cause of his problems being leaving the church he may blame you and that could lead him to the anger he displays.

However, none of us on this thread, or even at RfM at this time as far as I know, is a registered psychologist or psychiatrist or other relevant professional therapist and so we should not try to diagnose your son, and a pro wouldn't do it anyway over the Net.

I second all the advice to seek out professional help today. Deal with your reality at this moment. Help your son. All the rest of it is peripheral, even if it doesn't feel like it and it's nobody's business to be involved in it or giving opinions about it (with the exception of school personnel if necessary). I am not usually in favour of extreme action from the get-go but for this I second the idea that anyone who is causing you and/or your family and/or your son extra grief due to church-related opinions should be shuffled out of the way so you can focus on your son and then on the rest of the nuclear family members. The church part doesn't matter right now. Even if it may be playing a role that is something for a therapist to discover and as someone above said, the cause isn't the primary issue right now, helping your son and dealing with his feelings and behaviour are what's important, crucial, for this very moment. All the rest of everything will have to wait its own turn.

Good luck and please, let us know how things turn out for you and your son. We do care, even though this is all so anonymous.

I had a nervous breakdown when I was 11. Childhood depression and other mental disorders do exist and occur.

Get him to a NON-LDS counselor and a psychiatrist ASAP.

If he gets help early in his life, his chances of stablizing and having a more normal life in the future are greatly improved.

There is help for this.

I'm still around, and I'm 51.

All my best to you/

I hate to be the super negative one but have you ever considered someone abused him physically ir sexually? I have noticed male children who have often lean towards violence. My bf was like that as a kid and he had been molested. He never told his parents and he is just now getting counciling at 24. My nephew is like that he is also getting therapy but his father sold him out for drug money. Now I am hoping and praying nothing like that ever happened. That this is just what the other posters have said. I just want to cover all basis. And often times kids will say anything especially with a religious backround. The church was the whole reason I didn't say anything when it happened to me. Best of luck though. But I do highly agree with a non lds therapist idea.

I'm just happy to see people suggesting that professional help is needed. I hope he gets the help he needs and quickly.

Very sorry to hear you are suffering through this. This has nothing to do with leaving the church. When anyone says that to you, remind them that the son of rabidly Mormon Judge Jay Bybee of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals recently killed himself on the grounds of the Las Vegas Temple. (Bybee was author of the infamous torture memos for the Bush administration.)

So, active Mormons are, in no way, immune from the tragedy of depressed and suicidal children. Bybee, of course, is only one example of many where children of active and committed LDS have committed suicide or worse (Mark Hacking).

Sadly, these problems can be very difficult and intractable. I know from personal experience. I wish you the best.

"When anyone says that to you, remind them that the son of rabidly Mormon Judge Jay Bybee of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals recently killed himself on the grounds of the Las Vegas Temple."

Gives you pause, eh? Does me.

Take him to the hospital now. He needs to be admitted before he hurts himself or others

Talk to the teacher and school psychologist. Ask for a referral and get him into a plan that will address the behavior.

Overreacting and rushing him off to the hospital is not a good idea. Nor is placing blame.

Keep him away from relatives who want to place blame.

And tell these non-Christian busy bodies that you will have to have more space and latitude and to respect your privacy while you deal with a difficult time.

Nope, once a child says they want to kill themselves, it needs to be taken seriously, he needs to be hospitalized now!!!!!

That's why the parents need to seek advice from professionals today before they take knee-jerk advice from a stranger on the internet.

Exactly, get him to a hospital now!!!!!

They don't know the child and might not have anyone on duty with this kind of expertise.

The school does know the individual child and can make referrals for specific services that the parents and child need.

You don't claim to know this child or have insider information about him. If you're a professional as you seem to think you are, you should not be speaking in such black and white terms as you don't have the information needed to diagnose from what has been posted.

When my MIL told her doctor that she wanted to die she was admitted to the hospital one hour later. Take your son to the emergency room they will take care of this for you. Once we took her to the emergency room it was our of our hands. A judge had her committed right then and there. Nobody in the family had a say but then nobody in the family was responsible for her from then on either. They will do what is best for your son.

You might want to do some research on line about Oppositional Defiant Disorder. A friend's daughter was recently diagnosed with this along with ADD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder

I also agree with everyone else about finding another counselor.

As for your "friends" and "family," they need to shut up. This has absolutely nothing to do with your religion or lack thereof. Mental illnesses are serious diseases with biological and environmental factors. For too long people have treated the mentally ill as if they are defective or lacking in some way. It's time for that to stop. Tell your friends and relatives their thinking is right out of the 1800s.

First and foremost, don't blame yourself. The best parents can have children that have some mental illness or trauma that requires professional help. Unless you have actually done something directly to cause this on purpose, it's not your fault. If he had the flu, would you blame yourself? Would you blame it on leaving the church? I would hope not. While it may feel different, it's not.

From what it sounds like to me, and I'm not a professional, your child needs real medical attention as soon as possible. There are a lot of potential reasons why they may be acting this way, from any number of personality disorders to abuse that you are not aware of (unfortunately, this can happen and it's not your fault if it is what's happening).

Something that might help you in learning to communicate with your son is a book titled "Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder". It deals with people who have Borderline Personality Disorder, but the communication tools and learning to understand someone with the tendencies you've described could be a real help so you can better understand what he needs and how to talk to him.

I also encourage you to contact your local NAMI group (National Alliance for Mental Illness, nami.org) They may have resources that can help you. I went through their class for family members of people with mental illness and found it invaluable and it's free.

For anyone who would blame you or your inactivity at church for what your child is going through, I would respond with "Why would I believe a god who would punish a child like this. No god worthy of worship would do such a thing."

You may be in for a very long road. I won't sugar coat it. It won't be easy. It may take a long time to find the right counselor to help him with this. If he needs medication (and don't be afraid of medication, it can be a life saver, literally) it may take a while to find the right combination that works for him.

Please know that you are not alone in dealing with this. There is help out there, for both you and your son. Please consider getting therapy (non-LDS of coarse) for yourself to help you cope so that you can be there for your family like you need to. No matter how strong your shoulders may be, this is a lot to bare.

Thank you so very much. I needed your advice and support last night. I'm grateful for your advice and stories and words of encouragement.
I checked on him 6 times last night and finally ended up asleep on his floor.
I've spent my morning collaborating with the school counselor and pediatrician. We have an appointment immediately after school. I will keep you posted but progress might be slow.
I spent the night crying--terrified for his words, mad at myself because if I were a better parent we wouldn't be in this situation. I just felt helpless.
I feel better today.

Any parent that would feel as you do for their child is a good parent. It is understandable that you might feel this way. Any parent would, your child is in pain and you feel helpless to do anything about it. But, the best parent in the world can still have a child with problems beyond their control or understanding. It is not your fault. You are doing the best you can in a terrible situation. Please do not blame yourself. There's no need to blame anyone.

Please take care of yourself while you are dealing with this. You are not alone and there are support groups and assistance out there to help you better understand what's going on with both your son and with you while you deal with it.

It will be slow going, and there are going to be rough times ahead. Unfortunately, while it's getting better, mental health isn't where it should be yet. Do your research, be your child's advocate, do not just accept things that are told to you blindly. You are allowed to learn about what's going on.

Please, I'm practically begging, do not listen to those that would tell you that if you were a better parent that this wouldn't happen, or that if you were going to church that he would be fine. It's not true. It happens all too often and I've heard it myself (my wife has several issues that I won't specify, but I've been told countless times that I should be going to church or forcing her to go to church, a place which caused her painful panic attacks). Some of these people mean well, but they do not understand what they are talking about. You are not to blame and the church won't help, and in fact can very quickly make things worse.

One of our kids talked a lot about death at a similar age. It was very scary. She has pulled through and is in her late teens.

Best of luck.