I really thought Mormons could not sink to a new low. I mean the Mormons themselves--not the Mormon Church, although it does not get a pass.

When every fact presented or any verifiable reference was offered to expose the LDS fraud, you could always count on Mormons to dismiss it as "anti-Mormon" material and then looking at you like you were two pegs below used toilet paper for even bringing it up.

I would pity them. They were brainwashed. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.

I can't do that anymore. I am done.

Of all things, the church, in a last ditch effort, is now admitting--albeit in a very careful and non-full disclosure way--that all of the "anti" material is true or at least has some basis in fact. So now what's a TBM advocate of the "anti-mormon" explanation to do? The one-size-fits-all response has been rendered asunder? Calling these facts "anti" is now an embarrassing joke.

This should change everything. Right? But it's worse. Way worse. And it proves that most TBMs have relinquished every last bit of personal integrity that was lurking in their little anti-Mormon fearing souls. Their final line of defense? They say feelings are more important than facts. "Checkmate" they say. They say using your brain is wrong. They say studying is dangerous. God only cares about faith, and your brain is only meant to help you with the obedience process and figure out what 10% of the gross is.

Doubt your doubts means one thing: Doubt yourself. Doubt your reason. Doubt your instincts. Doubt your love. And above all, doubt the relevance of proven facts. So does this mean that studying, reasoning, deducing, and being honest enough with yourself to consider facts, make up the new version of "anti-Mormon?"

I am sickened by this new line of reasoning. They don't even care that the supposed translation of the BoA was a fraud and that Joseph once again lied when he claimed those scrolls were the words of Abraham because their feelings tell them that he was "inspired" to perpetrate that fraud.

They have their feelings! Their warm fuzzy feelings! And I am wishing all those smug, arrogant, head-in-the-sand Mormons to suddenly find their bosoms burning with another special "feeling" that will bring the truth and light to their lives that they claim in ignorance to already possess.

The feeling I refer to is that "Sinking Feeling" that allows you to see the lie when truth just can't be subjugated a second longer. Hopefully followed by the glorious feeling of floating on air triggered by your brain as it allows the light in.

Couldn't agree more! Where is the line drawn where it's the individual's personal failing in not seeing TSCC for the fraud it is and not attributable to the church...? I'd say we've reached that point with these essays being released.

Well, if you really want to argue, maybe these will help:


"The honest investigator must be prepared to follow wherever the search of truth may lead. Truth is often found in the most unexpected places. He must, with fearless and open mind "insist that facts are far more important than any cherished, mistaken beliefs.""
Hugh B. Brown

"If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed."
J. Reuben Clark (D. Michael Quinn, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. p. 24.)

“If faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”
George A. Smith (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, pg 216)

“I think full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret, not underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation.”
John Taylor (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, pg 264)

“This book [the Book of Mormon] is entitled to the most thorough and impartial examination. Not only does the Book of Mormon merit such consideration, its claims, even demand the same.”
James E. Talmage (Articles of Faith, page 273)

"The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding. And it has been wisely said that the man who knows only half of any question is worse off than the man who knows nothing of it. He is not only one-sided but his partisanship soon turns him into an intolerant and a fanatic. In general it is true that nothing which cannot stand up under discussion or criticism is worth defending"
James E. Talmage (Improvement Era, January, 1920, p 204.)

"To Latter-day Saints there can be no objection to the careful and critical study of the scriptures, ancient or modern, provided only that it be an honest study - a search for truth."
John A. Widtsoe (In Search of Truth, 1930)

"The doctrine of the Church cannot be fully understood unless it is tested by mind and feelings, by intellect and emotions, by every power of the investigator. Every Church member is expected to understand the doctrine of the Church intelligently. There is no place in the Church for blind adherence."
John A. Widstoe

“The essential thought must ever be that a man does not, except in his spiritual infancy, accept a statement merely because the Church or someone in authority declares it correct, but because, under mature examination, it is found to be true and right and worthwhile.”
John A. Widstoe

"Man must learn to know the universe precisely as it is, or he cannot successfully find his place in it. A man should therefore use his reasoning faculty in all matters involving truth, and especially as concerning his religion. He must learn to distinguish between truth and error."
John A. Widstoe

"We are at home with the most advanced truths discovered by scientists and with all competent philosophic thought—with truth wherever found—because our religion enjoins in us a love of knowledge and education, encourages us to seek understanding through the broadening of our vision and the deepening of our insight."
Hugh B. Brown

“One of the most important things in the world is freedom of the mind; from this all other freedoms spring. Such freedom is necessarily dangerous, for one cannot think right without running the risk of thinking wrong, but generally more thinking is the antidote for the evils that spring from wrong thinking. More thinking is required, and we should all exercise our God-given right to think and be unafraid to express our opinions, with proper respect for those to whom we talk and proper acknowledgment of our own shortcomings.
We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts.”
Hugh B. Brown

"One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may."
Joseph Smith

"I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness."
Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 364



"[The Book of Mormon] must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man, affecting both the temporal and eternal interests of every people under heaven to the same extent and in the same degree that the message of Noah affected the inhabitants of the old world. If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth until they are plunged with their families into hopeless despair. The nature of the message in the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. Therefore, every soul in all the world is equally interested in ascertaining its truth or falsity.

"In a matter of such infinite importance no person should rest satisfied with the conjectures or opinions of others: he should use every exertion himself to become acquainted with the nature of the message: he should carefully examine the evidences of which it is offered to the world: he should, with all patience and perseverance, seek to acquire a certain knowledge whether it be of God or not. Without such an investigation in the most careful, candid, and impartial manner, he cannot safely judge without greatly harming his future and eternal welfare. If, after a rigid examination, it be found an imposition, should be extensively published to the world as such; the evidences and arguments upon which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived, may perceive the nature of the deception, and be reclaimed, and that those who continue to publish the delusion, may be exposed and silenced, not by physical force, neither by persecutions, bare assertions, nor ridicule, but by strong and powerful arguments--by evidences adduced from scripture and reason. Such, and such only, should be the weapons employed to detect and overthrow false doctrines--to reclaim mankind from their errors, to expose religious enthusiasm, and put to silence base and wicked impostors.

"But on the other hand, if investigation should prove the Book of Mormon true and of divine origin, then the importance of the message is so great, and the consequences of receiving or rejecting it so overwhelming, that the various nations--to whom it is now sent, and in whose languages it is now published, (being the first in these latter times who have been so highly favored as to receive a preparatory message for the second advent of the Son of God,) should speedily repent of all their sins, and renounce all the wicked traditions of their fathers, as they are imperatively commanded to do in the message: they should utterly reject both the Popish and Protestant ministry, together with all the churches which have been built up by them or that have sprung from them, as being entirely destitute of authority; they should turn away from all the priestcrafts and abominations practiced by these apostate churches (falsely called Christian), and bring forth fruits meet for repentance in all things: they should be immersed in water by one having authority, and receive a remission of their sins, and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
-Orson Pratt
(http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/OP-BOM.html)

What an amazing collection. Thanks for that.

Those challenges were all so easy to put out there back when no one ever expected the inconvenient truths to see the light of day. I guess its a good thing for the Mormon church that their new prophets can supersede what the old prophets said because studying and honest examination of ALL the facts are no longer their friends.

Great quotes

TBM response: [Those quotes] don't mean that you should *try* to prove [TSCC] wrong. It means you should study [scriptures] and pray about them!

"We are at home with the most advanced truths discovered by scientists and with all competent philosophic thought—with truth wherever found—because our religion enjoins in us a love of knowledge and education, encourages us to seek understanding through the broadening of our vision and the deepening of our insight."
Hugh B. Brown

What the heck was great granddaddy thinking?

Mormonism must have been totally different in the 60s.

You forgot one important quote: "I don't know that we teach that."

-----That Important Mormon Dude on Larry King

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I am sickened by this new line of reasoning.

That's because it isn't reasoning.

It's like playing chess with a monkey.
You have his king in checkmate - and the monkey swallows the king.

Ha ha. I love that visual.

LOL that was brilliant

THANKS for articulating that so very well! That is one of the things that used to make me feel like I was losing my mind, like I couldn't trust myself when I was a questioning member! All the games playing and trickery! Black is white and white is black and The whole "the emperor has clothes" things! UUGH!

Thanks for this posting and the replies, especially the quotes on finding truth. It is frustrating to deal with the morgbot's mind. There is no reasoning involved, no weighing of facts, no view will be tolerated that will lead to the conclusion the church is a fraud.

I'll never understand why smart people insist on staying stupid.

I can't come up with a viable reason. Why would someone insist on building their life on the foundation of obvious fraud?

When I was young there were a lot of lessons using foundations as metaphors. Lots of admonishments to not build your house on sand.
songs are sang on the topic (How firm a foundation). The church claims IT is THE foundation everyone should build their lives on. The kids grow up thinking they know what a strong foundation is. They've been shown a pile of steaming manure and told it was rock.
They go out in the world, do some studying, point out to their bishop that the rock is really manure. All hell breaks loose. They return to the manure pile and raise their kids to call it a rock.

When I was TBM, I thought an argument was strong if it could not be disproved. Since then, I have learned that an argument that cannot, in principle, be disproved is the worst kind of argument one can make. Tautologies allow you to make leaps of logic that are not sound, and to arrive at conclusions that have no basis in reality.

Some in the church like to say "Look. Our church has been around for ~200 years. Critics have attacked it relentlessly, yet none have disproved it." This, they suggest, implies that the church is true.

But let's look at what is actually happening. The criticisms continue, and as more is discovered new, and infinitely more troubling, criticisms arise. The church has retreated step by step. They have abandoned the boldness characteristic of their earlier leaders. Now, they openly admit that the critics were correct, and they retreat to faith. They retreat to the tautology that the church is true because it is true.

They have lost the argument. They just don't want to admit it yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_cave

In the synopsis section, it talks about imprisonment, leaving, and returning. Very familiar, indeed. I no longer like their shadow-guessing game, and they riducule me for the new things that I know and represent.

Great analogy!

Thank you for that link. I had never heard of Plato's Cave. We never got lessons on things like that squeezed in-between the Obedience lessons in Sunday School. Damn, I learn so much from all of you. That was amazing.

That really should be the focus of it's own post. It is a brilliant analogy of leaving Mormonism or any cult that requires isolation.

And that's what it is to be Mormon. Isolated. In the world but not OF the world. Blinders on. Ears tuned only to the prophet. Inner self on lock-down.

Thank you jpt.

They're obviously trying to stop the bleeding.

So they are trying to remove the reasons for leaving... by admitting that they're true.

Followed by "we've never denied all that," and "we're telling the truth," and "we have nothing to hide," etc.

So, it's still the "true" church.

Most TBMs are still "safe."

It truly IS sickening.