It's long, but it was fun
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Hello! How are you?
EXMOJOE: I am Well. So I am aware that the BOM claims to be a record of the people of the Americas. Is there a way to verify this outside of “feeling good”?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: That is a good question. Have you ever asked to receive an answer from God?
EXMOJOE: I understand that we can meditate and pray and wait for good feelings. I just think that people of lots of different faiths “feel good” about the particular faith they’ve grown up in. So if I want to base my life and my children’s lives and spent my families inheritance on $6,000 in tithing each year I better have something more than “it feels good”.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: That is a legitimate concern. Have you read some of the Book of Mormon?
EXMOJOE: I am assuming you have read the book. What do you see in there that validates?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Great question! As I’ve studied it and prayed about it and then tried to apply the principles taught by the prophets and Jesus Christ I feel like I am closer to God. I feel him near me and that’s how I know these things are true. Sometimes God wants us to walk by faith until we receive a definite answer.
EXMOJOE: Yes, but I hear the same thing from many different religions. They follow the teachings of Jesus or Buddah and feel peace, closer to God.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: There are a lot of things that we could talk about that culturally help me feell that the Book of Mormon really was written in the Americas by an ancient people, but I don’t think that is what convinces me that it is true.
I think what really changed for me was when I felt that in reading that book I came to know Jesus Christ better.
EXMOJOE: So those things don’t convince you then? It’s just those good feelings that people of most religions have?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: For me it is definitely that way. Yeah, I believe that the Holy Ghost really can teach us the truth of all things.
EXMOJOE: But what about the people of other religions feeling the same about theirs? Why commit to Mormonism if they have the same feelings?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: I think for you to commit you have to recognize that it is a different feeling, or a more completeness of truth than you have felt before. We can feel good in any church as long as they are teaching correct principles. However, you will find as you study the Book of Mormon along with the Bible, pray, and attend church, you will know that these things are true.
EXMOJOE: Don’t you ever have doubts that it might not be divinely created?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Sure. I think doubts are important. Questioning has really h elped me. Believe me, there are a lot of reasons people choose not to be Mormon. So far those that are, they really have to have felt they’ve had a spiritual connection with God.
EXMOJOE: I think if one is an honest seeker of truth they study the pro and the con arguments. What books have you read that are on the con side of the mormonism argument?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: I have not read anti-Mormon literature.
I think studying truth can give us all the answers we need. Teachers don’t teach lies so you can learn what’s true. At least mine haven’t in church or in a secular environment.
But I don’t think I am naïve about what is said about our faith either.
EXMOJOE: So you’ve just studied one side of the argument?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Yep.
Do you believe that God can personally give you answers?
EXMOJOE: I believe that the Buddhist man believes that and the Buddhist man’s answer was that buddah is his guy. I don’t think the Buddhist man spent any time studying “anti-buddhist material” out of fear it would lead him astray and they would be teaching him lies.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Okay, but have you ever asked God a question in prayer and felt it was answered?
EXMOJOE: That is tricky to say. I have done a lot of praying and asking god questions. Of the thousands of times I usually get up tired of praying, even though I would spent a lot of time earnestly looking for answers. A few times I felt like meh OK that seems like an OK thing to do. Are your answers usually clear cut?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Not always. How do you pray?
EXMOJOE: 50/50? 1/100?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Ha ha. I can’t clearly define the number of times I get a clear answer, but I think your right. A lot of times God lets us make decisions on our own. He trusts us.
EXMOJOE: No seriously. I know sometimes we go into prayer with an idea of what we want and we pray and get up and say OK good to go. Have there been times when you really did not know what the answer was, but you got up afterward and knew just what the right answer was and of the times you didn’t have a preconceived idea before the prayer, what kind of percentage do you feel like you got an answer?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Yes, there have definitely been times like that.
EXMOJOE: You know growing up mormon you are taught for years that Mormonism is the right thing, so finally when you are a teenager and you want to know the answer and you know the answer “yes” would give your family so much pleasure and you could rest assured that you are going in the right direction, and this would make you feel good. Then it’s really easy to let our emotions say “yes” and it would feel good. To have the answer be no would feel bad because you’ve spent your whole life doing the wrong thing and your family would be disappointed. So we keep going to our knees until we feel like we got the “yes”.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: These are very valid concerns. Are you a member of the Church?
EXMOJOE: So back to my original question if there is nothing verifiable outside of “feeling good” my faith is pretty tenuous. I am a member with doubts. I am hoping to find answers here… So I wanted to find out if anyone has something besides feelings.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Have you found anything in the Book of Mormon that helps you believe aside from your feelings?
EXMOJOE: I haven’t. I have tried to talk to my dad about it. He believes strongly. I ask him to show me why and he says “feelings”. I bring up my concerns to him, concerns that to me seem pretty serious and instead of him looking into them he dismisses them as quickly as he can without a minutes investigation, which to me seems like he is not being an honest seeker of truth, but just trying to follow Mormonism without question. Since it is so hard to talk to family I am asking here where hard feelings can be avoided.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: That’s understandable. We are glad you came and feel comfortable enough to do that. What did you think of Elder Holland’s talk last April called “Lord I believe”?
EXMOJOE: Is that the one where he says someone has to go around or under the book of mormon to not believe in the church?
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/safety-for-the-soul?lang=engI feel like he “flipped the burden of proof”… when someone makes an incredible claim like “I have the truth”, the burden of proof is on them. So when he says they have not proven the BOM wrong therefore it’s true, well that’s just flipping the burden of proof. You cannot prove the pink unicorn did not create the earth therefore the pink unicorn must have created the earth.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Got it. No that is a different one…. Also good. However this one talk s about some of the answers to your questions.
Can you do me a favor?
EXMOJOE: Like?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Click here:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=engRead this article. We will wait till you are done. Come back and tell us what your thoughts are.
EXMOJOE: So I read it and noted a couple things.
Thing one: It was nice that the man in the beginning was able to ask jesus for help and the man had to declare belief, then jesus helped the crazy boy. That seems easy and quick. I have spent thousands of horus trying to believe. I spent 2 years on a mission amongst those thousands of hours. I’ve spent tens of thousands in tithing Monday. As a missionary I’ve asked people to make a lifetime commitment to the church after only a couple weeks of study. How much of my life do I have to spend before I get a miracle like that man whose child went crazy? Or maybe even just get a clear answer to prayer?
Thing two: He said if you just believe that’s good enough. If you can’t believe, just lean on me. I’ve also heard a testimony is gained in the bearing of it. This seems dishonest and kind of not to be offensive, but a little “brainwashy” to say something you don’t believe in the hopes that you will convince yourself.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: What are you looking for as far as an answer goes? Thanks for reading the article by the way!
EXMOJOE: Well my original question I guess. Have you found anything verifiable?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: One quick question for you. How did you feel sharing the gospel, reading the Book of Mormon and when you prayed about it? Just go with me for a minute.
EXMOJOE: Well I was out there for purpose, to persuade people to join the Mormon church. There was a lot of rejection, so when someone would listen it was nice.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Most definitely. I served in a similar mission.
However, when someone would pray for the first time, I felt the spirit so strong. Did you ever have an experience like that?
EXMOJOE: It felt good that we were making progress with the person, because that was our goal to get people praying and what not.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: What about you? How did you feel?
EXMOJOE: I think what your trying to get back around to is did it “feel good”, but as previously gone over the Buddhist feels good about Buddhism.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: Right. You are a spirit son of God. Much of his communication with you is through your feelings.
EXMOJOE: Right and the same feelings are given for opposite truths, that’s why I don’t think that is good enough to gamble your life on.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: What do you think it means to be “past feeling?”
EXMOJOE: What do you think it means to make an emotional decision?
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: As in this scripture, “Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voiced of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.”
EXMOJOE: He has never spoken to me in the voice of thunder which did cause the earth to shake. From the current church leadership I hear they are lead by the “still small voice”. I’ve never heard anyone claim the earth shook as god spoke to them.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: But earlier it talks about how he speaks through a still small voice, but ye wre past feeling?
What do you think that means?
EXMOJOE: I think I understand what it means, but what if the Buddhist god was whispering to you but so far you have refused to listen? The Buddhist feels good about Buddhism, I think the scripture you quoted can be used in just the same way with other religions.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: I’m not talking about the Buddhist God, but the god of all mankind. How do you think you will receive answers to prayer?
EXMOJOE: I am coming to believe that I won’t. I have said thousands and it feels like talking to the wall. If we expect people to commit after a couple weeks of missionary lessons, but we can try for 30 years and not get a clear answer, I think it might be time to shift our paradigm.
NOANSWERMISSIONARY: I’m sorry you feel like you are talking to the wall. We are asked to walk by faith in this life. I would love for you to study about faith and what that means to you.
EXMOJOE: Good night.