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Posted by: jujubee ( )
Date: January 09, 2014 09:33PM

did he get tarred and feathered cause someone was mad he made a pass at some girl? is it true they wanted to casterate him??

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Posted by: johnnyboy ( )
Date: January 09, 2014 10:20PM

Yes. And yes

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Posted by: Cokeisoknowdrinker ( )
Date: January 09, 2014 10:21PM

As I recall it was coal tar pitch...( hist of church)
Not hot molten tar, more like pitch from a tree.
Chicken feathers added for emphasis.

Correct me if I am wrong

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Posted by: madalice ( )
Date: January 09, 2014 10:26PM

Right on that one.

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Posted by: Chump ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 03:57PM

Right...it was just the back-up plan to poisoning him. Most log homes would have had buckets of this tar around for patching openings in the log walls.

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Posted by: jujubee ( )
Date: January 09, 2014 10:30PM

who was the girl? what led them to back of from castration?

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Posted by: squeebee ( )
Date: January 09, 2014 10:44PM

The doctor they brought backed down.

See http://mormonthink.com/grant6.htm

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 10:46AM

Nancy Marinda Johnson. She married Orson Hyde the next year, and then, ironically, after several years Joseph Smith sent Orson on a mission and took her as a plural wife. Chew on that one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2014 10:47AM by kimball.

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Posted by: johnnyboy ( )
Date: January 09, 2014 10:45PM

At the moment I forget exactly who it was that was in the group of me that did the tarring, but it was one mans cousin or younger sister who Joseph was trying to lure. If you google Sidney rigdon and Joseph tar and feather I am sure you will find the info. They pulled Sidney out of bed as well and almost killed him. Joseph ended up with a chipped tooth when they tried to pour acid down his mouth

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Posted by: FTG ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 08:43AM

It is awful that they didn't beat the living tar out of JS. We would have had one less duping church in our lives.

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Posted by: L Tom Petty ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 09:06AM

I think it was Luke Johnson's sister IIRC.

He was one of the 12 in the early days.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 09:20AM

And Symonds Ryder took part in the tarring/feathering because his name had been mispelled on some Mormon records, according to a few conference talks, using the object lesson that people leave the church for the dumbest of reasons. As with any other LDS object lesson, the story is fabricated.

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Posted by: zenjamin ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 09:30AM

Joseph had a learning curve.

- It's just that it was completely flat.

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 01:26PM

I've spent several hundred hours researching the incident.

Have investigated sources in Hiram, Ohio and adjacent
places. Lived there for two years -- interviewed local
historians. Also did considerable work with sources in
Independence in the RLDS Library-Archives and conducted
days and days worth of research in Salt Lake City.

Checking on-line you'll find a few web-pages I've posted
on this and associated subjects.

I've found no evidence to convince me that Smith and
Rigdon were assaulted for seducing or raping Ohio women.
The Johnson girl was not even living in Hiram at the time.
Smith may or may not have had sexual relations with her
in 1831 or after the tarring episode, but there is no
reliable evidence for determining the issue either way.

Also, while Mr. Ryder may indeed been disgruntled over
seeing his name spelled wrong, that was the least of the
reasons for his finding fault with Smith and Rigdon.

Ryder's disaffection, the tarring, and other events of
early 1832 were due to the duplicity of the Mormon leaders,
in encouraging new converts in Ohio to give up their lands
and move to Missouri -- that, and a host of problems arising
from the so-called "Vision," at the Johnson place, and Mormon
attempts to appropriate the Johnson property and the land
immediately adjacent to the Johnson farm.

If anybody truly has uncovered contradictory evidence,
then I welcome their presenting it here in this thread.

UD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2014 01:28PM by dalebroadhurst.

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Posted by: johnnyboy ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 01:32PM

other than the fact that he later married her. but that's just coincidence, right?

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 03:48PM

johnnyboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> other than the fact that he later married her.
> but that's just coincidence, right?

No -- much more than coincidence. But in order to understand
Smith's inclination to become closely allied with the Johnson
family you'll need to look at the Geauga County land transfer
records for the early 1830s.

The Johnsons didn't just own property next to the envisioned
Mormon Temple on Hiram Hill in Portage County -- they also
obtained prime land in Kirtland near the Kirtland Temple
site. They were also among the handful of Mormons who were
assigned "inheritances" bordering the planned Mormon Temple
in Independence, Missouri. Put bluntly: They had the dough...

Like Martin Harris, the Johnsons were gullible, had some
money, and were easily flattered by Joe Smith's fawning
attention, paid to themselves and family members.

Had Lucy Harris been susceptible to handing over her part
of Martin's estate, I have no doubt "Brother Joseph" would
have attempted to bed her as well. It was not just the
feminine charms of Joe's "plurals" that sustained his
attention.

As they said in the Watergate investigation:
"Follow the money..."

UD

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Posted by: johnnyboy ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 03:52PM

I actually completely agree with you on that point. His marriages seemed to be all about maintaining power amongst the families he could use for whatever benefited him at the time. The hot teenage action was just an added bonus. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

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Posted by: johnnyboy ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 01:38PM

Most Mormons believe that Joseph Smith's and Sidney Rigdon's tarring in February 1832 was done by an "anti-Mormon mob" inspired by the devil.

To the contrary, they were tarred not by an "anti-Mormon mob," but by their own followers, for two primary reasons.

First was their plan to have all of their church members sign over all of their assets and properties to the "United Order" communal experiment. Some members saw this as Smith and Rigdon's scheme to fleece them, and rightly so; the financial disaster that was the United Order, which culminated in the Kirtland Bank scandal, caused many Mormons to lose their life savings, and about half of all church members abandoned the faith over the incident, including most of the original twelve apostles.

The proof that it was his own church members who did the tarring was Smith's own statement that he recognized the perpetrators in church the morning after the incident, primarily one Symonds Rider and the sons of John Johnson. Smith, Emma, and Rigdon had been boarding with the Johnson family 35 miles from Kirtland at Hiram, Ohio. They weren't subjecting themselves to the communal lifestyle that they demanded of their followers at Kirtland.

Second, it was alleged that Smith made a pass at Johnson's 15 year-old daughter, Nancy Marinda, and that was her brothers' motivation for attacking Smith. "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith" supports this idea, but in his "In Sacred Loneliness" Todd Compton doubts it for lack of convincing evidence. It's likely true that Smith made the pass at Marinda for five reasons:

1. Joseph Smith had already taught his "plural marriage" concept in his 1831 "revelation" commanding a group of married men to "take ye wives from among the Lamanites" in 1831 (the tarring occurred in February 1832). This indicates that he had extra-marital relations on his mind during that period.

2. Joseph Smith eventually "plural married" Marinda in April of 1842, after sending her husband, Orson Hyde, on a mission. (Marinda later said she thought Smith was the father of her son, Frank.)

Thus, it is likely that Smith had his eye on Marinda since he had met the 15-year-old girl at Hiram in 1831, and that his 1842 "plural marriage" to her was his formalization of a long-existing desire for her (as it was also in the documented cases of Mary Rollins and Sarah Ann Whitney). The essence of Smith's "spiritual wifery" concept was that people knew each other in the "pre-existence," and that part of their earthly mission was to find their "soul mates" (Remember "Saturday's Warrior?") Once Smith had designated a female as one of his "soul mates," or "spiritual wives," they were to be "his" for eternity, even if they were already married to someone else; in this case, Orson Hyde.

3. Third, Smith's "plural" relationship with the 16-year-old Fanny Alger began in 1833. Since the 1832 tarring incident occurred between the 1831 marry-the-Lamanite-girls revelation and the 1833 beginning of his affair with Fanny, it's entirely likely that the tarring was at least partly because of Smith's budding unorthodox sexual concepts, which he tried out on fifteen year-old Marinda.

4. Fourth, it seems more likely that Marinda's brothers would want to castrate a man because of a sexual advance on their teenage sister, rather than over an issue of money.

5. The mob of church members that attacked Rigdon and Smith that night did not attempt to castrate Rigdon. Smith was the sole target of castration by Marinda's brothers.

Here is a little of LDS member and historian Todd Compton's views on the subject:

According to Luke Johnson, Smth was stretched on a board, then 'they tore off the night clothes that he had on, for the purpose of emasculating him, and had Dr. Dennison there to perform the operation. But when the Doctor saw the prophet stripped and stretched on the plank, his heart failed him, and he refused to operate.

The motivation for this mobbing has been debated. Clark Braden, a late, antagonastic, secondhand witness, alleged in a polemic public debate that Marinda's brother Eli led a mob against Smith because the prophet had been too intimate with Marinda. This tradition suggests that Smith may have married Marinda at this early time, and some circumstantial factors support such a possibility. The castration attempt might be taken as evidence that the mob felt that Joseph had committed a sexual impropriety; since the attempt is reported by Luke Johnson, there is no reason to doubt it. Also, they had planned the operation in advance, as they brought along a doctor to perform it.

The first revelations on polygamy had been received in 1831, by historian Daniel Bachman's dating. Also, Joseph Smith did tend to marry women who had stayed at his house or in whose house he had stayed. [Joseph Smith was living in the home of Marinda at the time.]

Many other factors, however, argue against this theory. First, Marinda had no brother named Eli, which suggests that Braden's accusation, late as it is, is garbled and unreliable. In addition, two antagonistic accounts by Hayden and S. F. Whitney give an entirely different reason for the mobbing, with an entirely different leader, Simonds Ryder, an ex-Mormon, though the Johnson brothers are still participants. In these accounts the reason for the violence is economic: the Johnson boys were in the mob because of 'the horrid fact that a plot was laid to take their property from them and place it in the control of Smith.' The castration, in this scenario, may have only been a threat, meant to intimidate Smith and cause him to leave Hiram, Ohio.

While it is not impossible that Marinda became Smith's first plural wife in 1831, the evidence for such a marriage, resting chiefly on the late, unreliable Braden, is not compelling. Unless more credible evidence is found, it is best to proceed under the assumption that Joseph and Marinda did not marry or have a relationship in 1831.
- "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith," 231-232.

Of course, Braden's recollection of an "Eli" could possibly have referred to a nickname for one of Marinda's brothers.

Faithful Latter-day Saint Mary Elizabeth Rollins testified that Joseph had a private conversation with her in 1831; she was then twelve years old. She said Joseph 'told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife.'
- Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to Emmeline B. Wells, summer 1905, LDS Archives

Within six months of Joseph's conversation with 12 year-old Mary Elizabeth Rollins, he and Emma had moved into the John Johnson home, where 15 year-old Marinda lived. Orson Pratt later quoted Lyman Johnson as saying that 'Joseph had made known to him as early as 1831 that plural marriage was a correct principle,' but remarked also that 'the time had not yet come to teach and practice it.'
- Orson Pratt, "Latter-day Saints Millennial Star (Liverpool England), 40 (16 Dec. 1878):788)

Perhaps Joseph was not discreet in his discussions about plural marriage, because rumor and insinuation fed the fury of the mob that tarred and feathered him. When the Johnson boys joined the mob that entered their own home, they clearly suspected an improper association between Joseph and their sixteen-year-old sister, Nancy Marinda."
- "Joseph Smith: the First Mormon", p.146.

If Joseph Smith had been successfully castrated that night in 1832, it's unlikely that there would ever have been secret Mormon temple ceremonies, sealings, garments or even temples as they exist today. After all, these are all relics of Joseph Smith's attempts to practice and conceal his plural marriage.

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Posted by: johnnyboy ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 01:39PM

this forum won't let me post links to where this came from but its from mormon kurtain

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 02:58PM

johnnyboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> this forum won't let me post links to where this
> came from but its from mormon kurtain


You might want to take a look at some of the sources I've
gathered together at SidneyRigdon.com.

I really, really doubt that Dr. Dennison was called in
to castrate the two Mormon leaders. He had vials of acid,
meant to pour upon their lying tongues, to inhibit any
future preaching in the Hiram schoolhouse, down the
road from the Johnson farm. His application of the acid
was largely ineffective and Smith conducted a short
preaching service downstairs in the Johnson house the
following morning.

Ryder was sick that night, but recovered enough to go by
the Johnson house (next door to his own residence) and
confirm that Smith had not been seriously injured. I doubt
very much that he participated in the tarring and acid
attack. Carnot Mason (later a founder of Hiram College)
appears to have been the ringleader and he may have been
the one who brought Dr. Dennison (who lived in an adjacent
township and had no personal reason to attack Smith) to
the Johnson farm that night.

The two Johnson brothers who were apostles later left the
Mormon Church. If they had any serious objections to Smith's
secret sexual life, they had ample opportunity to allude
to that in their subsequent statements regarding Mormonism.

Orson Pratt bragged before an RLDS audience that Luke
Johnson had divulged incipient Mormon polygamy to him while
the the men were together in 1831, but the foremost
authorities on the Johnson brothers (Bill Shepherd and
Mike Marquardt) distrust the Pratt claims. Neither do they
automatically attribute the 1832 tarring to any dispute
over Smith having a relationship with the Johnson girl.
She was in boarding school in Chardon in the winter of
1831-32. The timing of the 1832 tarring attack can be
coordinated with other, far stronger motivations among
Portage county Mormon converts and recent leavers -- if
the Johnson boys were suddenly angry at Rigdon and Smith
that night, over their away-from-home sister's sexual
life, then somebody needs to provide compelling evidence
that such purported anger was greater than that of the
collected Portage county ex-Mormons, who had far greater
and more personal grievances to throw upon Rigdon & Smith.

That much said, I stand ready to inspect and consider any
new proof anybody can supply regarding an attempted Smith
castration on the Johnson farm that night.

UD

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Posted by: top1 ( )
Date: January 10, 2014 09:28PM

I found all this quite fascinating. Either way, Joseph is an asshole who must be laughing from wherever he is at all the TBM pudd whacks and exmo's that were tricked for so many years.

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