So there is the study on the effects of divorce on children, and discussion about the legitimate problems of remaining in a bad marriage. So what is the purpose of the study--education? To encourage people not to divorce? To make people who are divorced feel like failures?

Sometimes the marriage is fine...but then one parter up and leaves. Is this study supposed to change the mind of someone who is going to leave no matter what, and act vengeful in the process?

Bad divorces happen. There are marriages where everything is going along rather well, certainly with issues as most couple have at different times in the marriage...and then one spouse suddenly acts like their brains have been scrambled by aliens and doesn't just file and divorce and leave, but contines to make life a living hell in any way possible for the one who was left?

My ex met another woman and divorced me for her. (Yep, I'm a cliche, lol!) Apparently my ex told her I was mentally ill, unstable, and he was afraid of my "temper." He said he was afraid that I might hurt him, perhaps even kill him, and he was devastated about ending the marriage and scared about what the divorce was going to do to him financially...even though I supposedly spent all of our money (even though he had his paycheck deposited into his personal account, gave me money for gas and groceries, and took me and the kids clothes shopping twice a year and he had to "okay" and limit what we bought...) My ex also went to a therapist five times and told her the same thing, and, according to court papers, she advised him to leave me immediately.

I've never met the other woman, never tried to contact her, but, according to our children, she doesn't want to meet me because she is afraid I will physically hurt her. She is happy to have rescued such a kind, sweet man from me, a devoted father who was devastated that he couldn't help his mentally-ill wife. Our children adore her.

I tried to keep the marriage together by asking that we go to couples therapy first to see if we could fix our problems before taking such a huge step. He declined, stating he believed I was "too unstable" to fix anything. I've been in personal therapy for the past two years (we've been divorced for 16 months).

The children asked their dad not to divorce me. I tried to shield them from it as much as possible. I didn't even take/ask for what I was "entitled to" (I hate that word) in a settlement under state law, just child support and a few years of maintenance. He got the house, even though he lived 250 miles away, and sold it and kept all the profits. We split the debt. Oh, and he waned custody of the kids--the kids he was away from for four years while he commuted 250-miles away for work--but I told him I'd fight him for custody; since he had to pay my attorney's fees as I was a stay-at-home-mother and our state mandates the "moneyed" spouse has to pay the non-moneyed spouses' attorney's fees when the moneyed spouse initiates the divorce, he said he would not fight me "at this time." The children at the time didn't want to leave their friends and move 250 miles away anyway.

So now my children are children of divorced parents. Having suddenly become "mentally ill and unstable" in the eyes of my ex, I can't say that I'm too sad about that anymore. I was devastated at the time, and also humiliated that I let him control the money and was a stay-at-home mom for 17 years and found myself discarded and without resources. I thought I was smarter than that, and was sad I did not insist on some independence and made the choices I did because I loved the guy. I was a Mormon-style housewife, a Mormon-like-thinking housewife. Oh, well--live and learn.

So the ex marries the new (financially-well-off) woman five months after the divorce. In that time, he has convinced my children that 1)I divorced him; 2)He didn't want the divorce but I chased him away; and 3)I'm mentally ill. He's called CPS and filed court papers saying my new home is filled with animal urine and feces, trash, and fleas, and I do not provide medical care for the children, and filed for custody accusing me of child abuse. CPS and doctors unfounded his accusations, but our children are telling CPS that it's all true (even the animal urine and feces, whose odor you can't just make disappear quickly), and telling their law guardian I don't give them enough food or buy them clothing (fortunately I kept receipts for clothing, and our grocery store tracks receipts for three years back). To keep this from turning into a novel, I'll just say a few months ago I got an Order of Protection for me due to stalking, harassing, and trespassing; he was arrested for violating it twice. He keeps getting adjournments on that court issue.

I got the court to order psyc evals for both of us. Surprise--I'm not mentally ill. Yes, the ex has definitely turned the kids against me and is lying to the children and the court. The psyc evaluator has concerns for the children's mental health as they grow up with these lies. But since the ex had an invalid mmpi-2 psyc test (the evaluator suggested because he was trying so hard to make himself look too good), there is no diagnosis for him other than he's passive-aggressive.

The ex filed for a reduction in child support. The judge said, based on his income, he should actually pay me more. My ex filed for a reduction again. He is also still pursuing custody, saying I am the one who set him up to look like a bad father and cleary the children prefer him. My oldest turned 18 and went to live with him and refuses to speak to me. He and his wife have a lot of money, he promised her a free ride through college and a car, they have a maid, travel overseas and such, etc. I'm back in school, qualify for some welfare programs, etc. I'm not taking welfare and I didn't ask for an increase in child support. Today one child announced I just want my kids because I want his money, and I financially raped him, and I'm selfish an should just let them go. If I do, I know, with his continued lies and the support if his new wife who believes his lies, I'll never see them again.

So, okay, there is a study about how divorce hurts children. So how does this study help anyone? I can't make my ex behave any differently. Being told this is bad for my kids does not help me in any way at all.

Sorry for the vent. This topic just pushed a button of mine, lol!

A study like this is like a weather report.

Doesn't say: "Do Not Go."
Says: "If you go, pack an umbrella."

"So what is the purpose of the study--education? To encourage people not to divorce? To make people who are divorced feel like failures?"

that was my entire point about the post. So we have this info now, what do we do with it? We can be a little more conscious of who we enter into relationships with, but that info can't stop an entire population of people from falling in love and having babies and making possible poor decisions. In a perfect world it would, but we all know life isn't perfect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2014 07:16PM by Tupperwhere.

I think that in many, if not most, good marriages people occasionally consider divorce. There are times in history when divorce has been more or less socially acceptable. Wallerstein is simply saying that if you are in a good relationship but sometimes think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, consider the effects on your children. If after that you think that the outcome would be better after a divorce, by all means go ahead.

In an imperfect world it is always better to have better information and to take a bit more time to make big decisions. Wallerstein is simply helping people learn from the experience of others.

Wallerstein did this study.
In it she simply describes: "here is what happens."
She does not pass judgment e.g. does nowhere say "and that is bad" (or good).
It is purely description.
Does not say anyone is a bad parent. Or a failure.

It think it is NOT useful for deciding yes divorce, or no divorce.

The usefulness is this:
If I know precisely where the kids are vulnerable, I can anticipate and implement very exact interventions to counter the effect divorce may have on those kids.

that's easy to say or note after the fact, but most people in relationships don't think that far ahead. Sh!t just happens sometimes and it's usually after the fact that you realize it.

Again, I believe what Wallerstein showed is what happened in Marin County in the 60's-70's.

Again, that is incorrect. She followed well over a hundred cases from about 1970 through the 2000s. The setting in affluent, homogenous, safe Marin County biased the results in favor of finding little or no damage, thereby underestimating the effects of divorce. Subsequent studies conducted elsewhere vindicated her findings.

It is easy enough to get beyond the focus on 1960s and 1970s Marin County by reading Wallerstein's work, reading reviews of that work, or looking up the later studies. This stuff is all over the internet. If Marin really was an aberration, the later investigations in other places would have found something different, which they did not.

I guess I'm questioning why it is universally understood that affluence favors finding no damage. Affluence brings with it it's own set of problems.

True. But the negative effects of affluence are more or less present in all wealthy households regardless of whether a divorce has occurred.

One of the pathways through which divorce hurts kids is poverty. The percentage of US kids living under the poverty line has been rising steadily over the last several decades in part due to more divorces. Affluence mitigates that important effect, improving the kids' chances of having home care, health care, education, extra-curricular activities, etc. Given how important those things are (even if less important than having stable, loving parent(s)), they brighten the outlook for the average child.

The key is recognizing how many children of divorce live in true deprivation. It really is appalling.

Studies like this aren't intended to pass judgment; they're intended to provide guidance on actions.

A real life example may be useful. We know that children that grow up in single-family homes are more likely to be delinquents as juveniles, and are more likely to become single parents themselves. This is in no way a reflection or an attempt to pass judgment on the individuals or root causation -- just statistical fact.

So, a state is looking at mandating a period of counseling prior to granting a divorce. Say, 6 months. The people proposing the law know that this will impact people in one of two ways:

1) Some divorces will be prevented due to the counseling; and
2) Some people will be harmed by the inability to grant the divorce more quickly (harmed financially, physically, etc.)

They'll then have to weigh the question -- how much 'good' is done by preventing each divorce? Knowing the downstream effect -- ie, impact on children and individual members of a couple -- will help them determine this.

As a study as to exactly where and how children suffer, I can understand that. To say "this is where the kids are hurt most so this is where we should first focus our efforts" makes a lot more sense than if the book is a "this is what is likely to happen if you divorce" study. Yes, we know children suffer in a divorce, even one involving domestic violence. Sometimes people need to be divorced, one reason being the effects on the children of divorce are much better than the effects of children remaining in a bad marriage.

My reaction is an emotional one more than a logical one, given my current circumstances. I already feel enough guilt as a mother wanting to protect her children from harm, and I'm hurt that the harm is coming from their own father, and of course puzzled as to why he couldn't have just left me for the other woman but instead is doing the "mentally ill" pursuit.

Probably because he needs some kind of justification to make him look better to others. You're the convenient target and he likely doesn't want to look like the asshole for leaving you.

I had the same thing happen to me- An ex wanted to feel justified in leaving me for another woman, so he made up all kinds of heinous BS about me and spread it around.

If he can make people believe that you're the bad guy (including himself), it was perfectly reasonable to leave you.

Yup, that's me--the scapegoat, lol!

They would be better off mandating a period of 6 months before people could get married and have kids.

It is also fascinating in another way.

RfM is a microcosm of the greater society.
So it is a laboratory of the greater.

We can see here, right now before us, how ones experiences (in the greater society ossified into political/religious systems) significantly impact science.

Science is nowhere as "pure" as the scientist would like to believe.

So: embryology can explain the development of species, even noting how remarkably like the the pig embryo is the human; but cannot answer questions as when does life begin, or address ethics.

Edit: should say, impacts application of science.
Science is a tool. It actually is fairly precise.
How or whether the findings of science is applied depends on politics and religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2014 09:53PM by zenjamin.

Over the years I have seen how in divorce there is an unwritten acceptance of very sad behavior. Not sure if this comes from our litigious society or TV, but it was amazing how destructive a decent human can be when a relationship goes bad.

What I noticed more than anything, was a desire to reinvent or "fix" an unhappy life. What should be a journey to healing something that is broken, most often, the "easy" way is taken by shirking responsibility and rewriting the narrative that is the failed marriage.

When someone lies about what really happened in a marriage to themselves and others, there is nothing to be done but acceptance. Lies have a way, like a splinter, of finding their way to the surface.

If you focus on Truth and Fair behavior on your part, then the rest belongs to someone else....hence you have true freedom. With true freedom, dealing with the "imprisoned" is not difficult because you realize this cannot effect your happiness.

Intellectually, I agree--I can't change what he is doing, he's going to do what he is going to do, and lamenting what is happening only wastes time and life. I already see that, as time as gone on and the more he does, people are recognizing who and what he is. So, yes, it probably will work out, at least legally, in the end.

Emotionally, however, I'm watching my children be hurt--even though they think they are not being hurt by him but by me and my supposed mental illness, and, as a mother, I'm in agony watching this happen to them and my mom-instinct is to protect them--NOW.

It's hard to be patient when your kids are in pain.

Look up the term Parental Alienation Syndrome. This is what your ex is doing to your children. Do not waste time wondering why he would do this......read about how to counter it. It is a battle, plain and simple.

I would have NEVER pegged my ex as capable of this behavior to the children he loves. But I have been fighting this since day one of my divorce from my ex.

You can fight it, don't give up.......just do whatever you possibly can to show your kids that what dad says about you and what they see are two very different things. Do whatever you have to do to be available for them, give them the attention and love they need. It all takes time, but hopefully over time what they experience and what dad says become two entirely dofferent things.

This syndrome is a powerful thing. It is terrifying and looks and feels hopeless sometimes. Do not give up....! They are your babies, they need you, their mama.

The psyc evaluator told me what my ex is doing Parental Alienation. The evaluator said he would not call it parental alienation in the evaluations because some judges consider PA to be made-up hype, so he simply said my ex is turning the children against me and the children are suffering/will suffer for that and outlined how my ex's behavior is bad for the kids.

People keep telling me the kids will see it when they get older. I don't know if they will. He's got his wife and all of his friends many states away all reinforcing what a great guy my ex is to the kids, these people never having met me but believing his woe-is-me-my-ex-wife-is-out-to-get-me-and-she's-mentally-ill and giving the kids plenty of sympathy when they go on visitation. Plus the kids know what happens when they go against their father. For instance, at the time of the divorce, my now-18-year-old did not want to live with him because she showed dogs as a junior handler and my ex is allergic to dogs. (Our one dog had a very nice detached kennel, and he was in the house only when my ex was away at work during the week, and we did a whole-house scrub-down before he returned for the weekend--he never had an allergy attack). My ex agreed my daughter could have a dog. When my ex filed for a divorce, he told her that she chose a dog over him and he'd never forgive her for that. One year later she's living with him, not talking to me, having moved every last thing she owns out of the house **except** her awards, pictures with her dog, and her dog. All my ex has to do is pull the "poor me" card and the kids come running doing whatever he wants. The psyc evaluator says this is what passive-aggressives do, and it's his personality, so unless the kids ever figure out what that is, they are always going to take care of poor, poor daddy. I know--this is how my ex manipulated me in the marriage...he didn't have to raise his voice or beat anyone up, but just had to so the "if you don't do what I want then you don't love me and you are hurting me to the core," and of course I lived him and didn't want to hurt him so I did what he wanted, then felt resentful about now sticking up for myself, but not being able to point to anything he did "wrong" to make me feel resentful, a did course my self-esteem was non-existant as I always had to prove my love...it took the end of the marriage, therapy, and a psyc eval to show me how I never "got it" for twenty whole years. How can expect my kids to "get it" if I didn't?

How did you cope with PA? I'm still trying to figure it all out.

Yes - he is deliberately trying to alienate you from your children. You need to fight back-- That man imho just traded you for a newer richer model and he needs to feel the burn (go to court and play hard-- now)

I'm doing everything that I can via the courts, but they take forever. We've been in court for over a year and no decisions have been made on anything. And it's tough--the same psyc evaluator who said my ex is alienating the kids also said I'm a vindictive ex wife because I "had my ex arrested" for violating the Order of Protection (yes, I'm the "bad guy" for contacting the police when he violated the order, not my poor ex husband who had to "suffer the humiliating experience" of being arrested.) The children's law guardian's attitude is the kids want to live with my ex and I'm obstructing the process. Even with evidence, not everyone in the court system looks at it.

That said, I have a pit bull attorney. I won't write her legal advice to me here, but I will say her strategy, which doesn't appear aggressive but is, is working...but, sadly, it's not an overnight process.

Good-- I think the other advice here (reading material etc) will be helpful. You have my sympathies--

All advice is just that: advice.

Your lawyer is an extension of you. They act on your behalf.

All manipulation aside, if you can navigate your life to a place of peace and harmony, I have repeatly watched as anger and lies fall away and truth (real truth) prevails. It does take patience, but if you are in a great place that isn't dominated by those conflicts, anger and lying, then you are living and time passes very fast when we are living.

Build your life. Build yourself. Your children will see your honesty and openess as an undeniable truth like Ghandi.

I know it sounds idealistic, but it is mostly about letting go of things that you can't control and focusing on things you can.

Sometimes, and you will know when, you must fight the current and sometimes you pick your feet up and let the current take you.

Again, just my viewpoint from my personal experience.

Best of luck to you.

MovingOn, you described a classic case of abusive behavior. Get a copy of Lundy Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry, Controlling Men." Bancroft, a counselor and therapist who spent 20 years working with abusive husbands, explains in detail how abusive, affluent men systematically turn their children, extended family, counselors, therapists, and the justice system against their ex-wives, why they do it, and how to fight back (to the extent such is possible).

Also get a copy of Dr. Patricia Evans' book, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship." ASAP.

As for Wallerstein, she studied a very small sample group in the 1960s and 1970s, using flawed methodology and collecting only anecdotal data. The biggest problem, though, is that her subjects were handpicked from a group of individuals who had been referred to her clinic because they were already severely troubled. There was no control group, no comparison, and no study of non-troubled subjects. From that group, Wallerstein drew conclusions about the population at large and generalized that all divorce irreparably harms the children. Here are some articles that explain:

http://www.divorceinfo.com/judithwallerstein.htm

http://www.wayneandtamara.com/judithwallerstein.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=SsqfOrhd1u0C&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=Wallerstein+study+flawed&source=bl&ots=okKHeS

In a 1989 interview, Wallerstein said that she would never advise parents to stay together merely "for the sake of the children" -- even though she'd made millions from her book which said exactly that!

IMHO, our culture forgets that until very recently, intact two-parent nuclear families were NOT the way most people grew up. Many cultures had other systems. Even in Western patriarchal societies, death often deprived children of one or both parents (Ex: Europe during the Black Plague) -- not to mention maternal death during or shortly after childbirth, men getting killed due to war, etc. Yes, death is "different" than divorce for children -- and arguably worse.

In any case, guilting the parent whose spouse dumped them serves no constructive purpose. Why is it that we focus more on how terrible divorce is (even in cases where it is a really GOOD thing) than on all the ways single parent families can thrive and succeed? I suspect that our culture (still rampantly patriarchal) is scared by the spectre of women successsfully raising children without the men who have abused, cheated on, and dumped them.

I started reading Bancroft's book a while ago, but out it aside when work and school stuff got too busy. I'll pull it out again tonight.

My ex is incredibly charming and goes out of his way to be the "nice guy." He charms everyone. We divorced pretty quickly (only took a couple of months to get it done because he was so anxious to get it done) and he brought the new girlfriend up to our area two weeks after the divorce was final, taking her places where he knew our friends would be to show her off and boast about his new great love, and immediately started on the Facebook posts. "Tacky" is one of the more polite phrases people have used to describe his behavior, lol! People in our area, who knew us for years, are shocked that this charmer could treat his ex-wife and family this way; his supporters in his state are still being charmed, thinking he did what he did because I'm mentally ill.

It's the same with therapists, attorneys, etc. They see his performance for a very short time and can't believe such a wonderful, kind, sympathetic man (who never bashes me, but just says he is so concerned for the welfare of his children who have to live with their mentally-ill mother and he'd LOVE to see me get some help) is abusive. Sigh.

anonlady,

It appears you have read neither the Wallerstein books nor the reviews cited earlier in this and the previous thread, including professional psychiatric reviews.

Her sample size was reasonably small, but a lot of studies work with well less than her 130 or so cases. There was a control group, regardless of what you say. Wallerstein also explicitly lists the limitations in her study, both the methodological ones and the ones she suspects--going further than necessary--may have influenced her work. In addition, with her encouragement several other researchers did follow-up studies that vindicated her research. If you had read reviews of her work in psychiatric journals, you would know this.

Against the peer-reviewed articles, what sources do you offer?

1) Wayneandtamara. Wayne and Tamara are newspaper columnists and blogists. On their blog they have articles on "Diana, Charles, and what love has to do with it," "What is the difference between like and love," "asking for a date," "misers," and "living large." These people are about as authoritative as my pet chihuahua.
2) Your other two sites are run by divorce lawyers. The divorce industry is worth $5 billion a year, and you are telling us to believe the words of people who earn some of that money by encouraging divorces. How can you even cite these three sources with a straight face?

Finally, and most importantly, you quote Wallerstein as saying that she would never tell people to stay together for the sake of children. Then you say that her book does precisely that. IT DOES NOT. IF YOU HAD READ THE BOOK, OR ANY OF HER BOOKS, OR ANY OF HER ARTICLES, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT WALLERSTEIN NEVER DOES THAT.

I'm deeply sorry to hear about your troubles.

I think part of this is the involvement of lawyers. As I said previously, the divorce industry is worth billions of dollars. Since lawyers work adversarially, they pit even cooperative spouses against each other. Also, in courts it is permissible to stretch the truth and accuse each other of the maximum possible wrongdoing, so that is what happens.

Mediation sometimes works better. But what I have seen is that often the power relationship that existed before the separation is carried into the arbitration process, so if there is a dominant husband he often has more influence in the mediation.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think the system definitely makes things worse.

Best wishes as you go forward with this hellish process.

I never had to tell anyone that my ex-wife was abusive or crazy. She did that all on her own.

MovingOn, I can't address your personal experience with any authority, but I can speak as the child of divorced parents who fought tooth and nail for more than a decade after they split up.

1. In most states--maybe all--your children will be able to access legal records of your divorce once they are adults. That will go a long, long way toward letting them know what actually happened. If your ex is the one who filed, if he made numerous allegations without substantiating them, if one or more judges ruled against him, etc. It is quite likely that one of your children will discover this and share the info with the other kids.

2. If your ex lied about you, he will lie about the new wife and the children. In fact, he's probably already doing that if they've been married more than a couple of years. That will be enough to severely curtail or end his relationships with the kids.

3. If the kids act crappy to you, they may feel extremely embarassed once they realize the truth and may avoid you out of shame for their behavior rather than out of anger at you. But you can help them get over this feeling.

4. If you haven't already (and if you can afford it somehow), get the most kickass, shark lawyer you can find to defend you the next time he takes you to court. Get someone who will send a private detective after your ex. After all the crap he's pulled, it's time to take your gloves off.

I promise that your kids will try to come back to you at some point. They're young, confused and trapped right now. Best of luck in this situation. It really does get better.

Thank you so much for the support. I do have a fabulous pit bull attorney. She is a criminal trial lawyer whose passion is family law--she is a take-no-prisoners kind of lady, but is also compassionate and very fair. She is not making much money from me at all--she knows I don't have much--but is a grandmother who had an abusive ex once so she knows what our family is going through and she is determined to do right by me and the kids.

My ex has gone through four attorneys in 18 months--now he is representing himself. He says he has an attorney for one of the matters, but even my attorney can't confirm that because the attorney in question doesn't respond to her. I guess we'll find out when we show up to court for that particular matter.

I've had the same thoughts about the court papers...if they look they can see who divorced who. What would be more convincing are the emails he has sent me, the psychological evaluations, and the emails he has sent to my attorney, but I'm not going to show those to the kids, now or ever.

But, really, I'm thinking that, if they do not recognize or understand what passive aggressive behavior is, they will not get it. Before I went limited-contact with him (a few months after the divorce was finalized) and we would see each other at visitation exchanges, he'd smile at me and say, "It looks like you are having a problem with X. Can I help you with that before you break it?" Not yet understanding what passive-aggressive behavior was yet, I'd respond like what he said was valid--"I'm NOT having problems and I'm NOT going to break it. I'm quite competent. WHY would you say that?" Then he'd put on a hurt face and say, "I was just trying to help, I don't understand why you get upset when I'm just trying to be nice," and the kids would chime in that I'm being mean to their dad.... Now when he sends his weekly passive-aggressive notice of what time he's picking up the children or giving me last-minute notice that he isn't showing up, I just laugh and don't even respond. But he will send emails or texts to the kids saying things like, "Hey, I got a weird email from your mom. I'm really worried about your situation there. Is she okay?" One daughter was on the phone with him talking about having friends over, and one friend spilled something on a chair, and I could hear his voice coming through the phone, saying, "Did you mom get mad? Did she yell? No? Oh, well, she must have been on good behavior for guests then."

And all I do is keep my mouth shut.......

I'm so sorry for your situation--what a piece of work. Is there any way that you can cut contact with him and have an intermediary do the child-exchange contact? A judge might order this if you have the documentation that he's harassing you, and it sounds like you do. The kids may not pick up on the passive-aggressive behavior yet, but a judge will and they get pissed off about it if a parent is using the kids to work over the other parent. (At least, several of the judges who heard my parents' various cases did, and they appointed guardians ad litum to be the go-betweens.)

And it's probably hard to see now, but most or all of your kids will pick up that their father's behavior is awful sooner or later. In my family, six of the seven of us were able to recognize it by our late teens/early twenties. It is horrible to realize that one of your parents is a rotten human being, which is why your kids are having trouble with it. But it WILL happen.

Here's a Relief Society story for you which may help, which happened in the ward I was in about ten years ago. I was giving the lesson on forgiveness, and a young woman in her 20s told the room about her mother and her example. Her parents had gone through a horrible divorce and her father had alienated the kids from their mother, similar to what your ex is doing now. The mother stood her ground but kept her silence around the kids, as you are doing. This young woman said that she was horrified as she realized the extent of what a jerk her dad was, but that she had her mother's example of good behavior. She said something to the effect of, "My mother taught me that forgiveness means letting go and moving on. It doesn't mean putting up with toxic behavior."