Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: notamormon ( )
Date: January 13, 2014 01:30PM

Has anyone here watched this? Opinions?

Tad R. Callister
Presidency of the Seventy

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/ces-devotionals/2014/01?lang=eng&cid=HPFR011014342&im=true

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: notamormon ( )
Date: January 13, 2014 09:05PM

BTT

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 14, 2014 12:25AM

Since you brought it up, you start. What's your opinion?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: notamormon ( )
Date: January 14, 2014 09:26AM

Completely circular arguments.

It is hard to pay attention all the way through but I did try.

It basically came down to the church is true because there is no way Joseph Smith could have known what he knew. How did Joseph Smith know what he knew?, because he said so.

LOL

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: baura ( )
Date: January 14, 2014 11:59AM

I didn't watch the video, but the last thing the Church wants to
do is have Joseph Smith closely examined. The more they say
stuff on the record (an actual GA giving a talk as opposed to
just a mopologist bloviating) the more they set themselves up as
targets for refutation.

The "how could Joseph Smith have known" arguments were popular
long ago. They are now falling back on the "even a prophet is a
human being and not perfect."

That said the way to treat "how could Joseph Smith have known"
arguments is as follows:

(1) Is it something that Joseph Smith definitely KNEW or is it
something in the BOM or BOA etc. which bears some similarity to
something Joseph Smith probably didn't know and which has been
massaged into a false positive? This is the kind of stuff John
Edwards and other cold readers do. Say lots of stuff, and if
any of it is similar to something in the mark's life claim you
knew all about it.

Psychic: "I'm getting a sensation of cold temperatures."

Member of audience: "OMG, yes my uncle who died last September
lived in Alaska (or Minnesota, or Maine, or Canada etc.)."

Psychic: "Yes, and your uncle has a message for you that . . ."

(2) Could it actually be something that Joseph Smith COULD
have known without too much trouble? The argument is made by
Mopologists that a passage in Isaiah that is duplicated in the
Book of Mormon but with a twist. The Book of Mormon used the
phrase "Ships of the sea and Ships of Tarshish" where Isaiah
uses only "Ships of Tarshish." It happens that the Septuagint,
a translation of Hebrew Scriptures into Greek that was done in
the second century B.C.E., says "Ships of the Sea."

Now the apologists say there must have been an original that
said both "ships of the Sea" and "ships of Tarshish" and by the
time of the Septuagint, Tarshish phrase was lost. How, they
say, could Joseph Smith have known what was in the Septuagint?
Did he somehow, in upper New York run across a copy of the
Septuagint and then learn Greek so he could read it (straw man
alert)?

Leaving aside that "ships of the sea" is an easy misread of the
original "ships of Tarshish," (go up to 100 people on the
street and say "finish this sentence, 'ships of the ________.'
See if a lot don't say 'sea.'") the passage from the Septuagint
was quoted IN ENGLISH in more than one popular Bible commentary
of Joseph Smith's day. In other words, the very kind of book
someone interested in the Bible would be attracted to.

(3) Could it be just a coincidence? Given a lot of stuff that
Joseph Smith said, and a lot of stuff that exists in recorded
history there are bound to be gazillions of opportunities to
find parallels. Mopologists point to an ancient Babylonian
practice of cutting off the arms of the enemies and presenting
them to the King as "proof" of Ammon cutting off the arms of
his attackers in the Book of Mormon.

Ancient Babylon? Really? I thought Lehi was from JERUSALEM
and left BEFORE the Babylonian captivity. Besides the reason
for cutting off the arms of the attackers in the story of Ammon
was that they had raised their arms to smite and kill him.

That there is something in all of ancient history (thousands of
years covering millions of square miles) that is in some way
similar to something in the BOM (531 pages) is to be expected.

(4) Is it something real? That JS made up some doctrines which
can't be proven true or false, doesn't mean he knew anything.
It just means he had a good imagination.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2014 12:02PM by baura.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: baura ( )
Date: January 14, 2014 11:20AM

56 minutes?

Sorry, even I'm not that much of a glutton for punishment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **    **  ********  **        **    **  **    ** 
 **   **   **        **        ***   **  ***   ** 
 **  **    **        **        ****  **  ****  ** 
 *****     ******    **        ** ** **  ** ** ** 
 **  **    **        **        **  ****  **  **** 
 **   **   **        **        **   ***  **   *** 
 **    **  ********  ********  **    **  **    **