How much you want to bet, the girls said something to their bishop as little girls, and the bishop covered it up? It all seems very suspicious that after all these years now something is being done. Those poor girls.
That's what I always thought too. These men were called by god hisself to be BISHop! Of course they're good men. Moral, clean, honest, upstanding citizens, or else god would not have called them, right?
Then I found out one of my former bishops is currently serving time for BEING the perv. Two 11 - 13 year old girls that they know of. Would he really report someone else for something he is doing himself? I tend to think he'd be one to counsel the girl to forgive and forget.
My response was in direct repy to your statement that:
>In my 30 years in the church I'm willing to bet that the >majority of my bishops would have reported the offendor to the >authorties.
My point is, we were taught that bishops are good guys, you can trust them always. And that's not necessarily so. We all looked up to this guy, revered him in some ways. He went on to become stake president so of course we thought he was damn near perfect or god would not have called him.
So tell me, what do you base your statement on that your bishops would have reported it?
Please reference the word "majority" in my claim. Then note I said "I'm willing to bet"
Nothing there obligates me to produce any support or evidence. Also, I still fail to see how your personal experience indicts Mormons of anything a-typical, which you appear to be implying.
The majority of people do not sexually abuse children so I don't need to demonstrate anything special.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2011 07:27PM by rj.
I'm not asking for support or evidence. I'm asking why you would bet that the majority of your bishops would report abuse? Because they were good guys? Because they were men of god? Because they had children of their own? Because they're mormons? Why?
That was my general impression of them as human beings. It's also my understanding that this is what they are instructed to do. Unless they themselves are abusers, it seems likely they would follow the guidlines set forth in the CHI and report the abuse.
Didn't mean to strike such an argument. It was said kind of quick, and not all bishops are bad, not even the majority. Sheesh that part of the discussion blew up fast. How about we all do this one word?
I'll bite. I'm a nevermo, I wasn't raised Mormon nor have I ever even set foot in their church. I'm not from Utah, though I now live here in a tourist town.
My neighbor, over in COlorado, was arrested and went to prison for molesting the neighborhood kids. His Mormon brethren went to court and testified how great of a guy he was. Well guess what, they lied.
If you stay on this board for long, you'll read story after story about how yes, Mormons are more prone to sexual abuse of children. The culture breeds it, the secrecy, the total taboos on anything sexual, the culture of superiority of the male Priesthood holder, yada yada.
In my experience, Mormons are indeed perceived as being more prone to such behavior, it's one of the secrets TSCC won't tell you. As a non-Mormon, I can tell you the world in general doesn't think very highly of your cult.
Perhaps your perception of what "the world" thinks of the Church is a bit skewed. Lots of non-Mormons think very highly of the Church and its members. They might not buy the doctrine but they admire the organization be it your or my reality or not.
I don't believe Mormonism 'breeds' this type of thing.
It happens in all circles of society.
If secrecy or covering up is used it's wrong whether in LDS Church or any other organization.
My perceptions are based on growing up in Colorado and living in Utah for a number of years. Believe me, TSCC is not held in high regard by the people I've talked to, and I used to think people were being prejudiced against Mormons (until I found this forum) by calling them liars and closeted and weird. I can't tell you how many times I've been told "watch your back" when someone knew I was dealing with a Mormon. I have actually stood up for Mormons in general many times. My aunt married a Mormon, so I had a bunch of Mo cousins, as well as friends. It really is a general perception, in my experience. I personally try to not to judge anyone until given reason to do so. But religious values (lying for the Lord) can breed stereotypes.
in a company that employed both--the nonmormons almost to a person thought mormons were cliquish, bizarre, etc. There were a few exceptions, but very few. That was the first time I realized--living in Utah all my life--what people outside of Utah thought of mormons. The majority of the world doesn't even really care about mormons, but for those who do know them, they do not have a good opinion.
And I guess I just as well add--no not all bishops are people who don't turn in sex abusers--probably only a few, but I did have a friend who I grew up with whose dad sexually abused she and her sisters. One of her sisters went to the bishop and the bishop didn't believe her. One of the girls even had a baby that was given up for adoption. "Fast forward" another 30 years . . . and one of the granddaughters reported her grandfather about the time he was going to go on a mission. This effected the whole area--as there were many marriages of neighbors and friends of mine whose granddaughters were sexually abused by this man. He just got out of prison after serving about 15 years. If the bishop some 45 YEARS AGO had listened, the outcome would have been different. I know of several others, too, from the small Utah town I grew up in--including the small Utah town I live in now.
One guy, who actually took our wedding video--he had been to many bishops--and was finally sent to prison for abusing little boys. He considered himself was it Moses who parted the red sea? About 80 ward members showed up to support him at his trial--including his 2 sisters whose sons had been abused by him. They said, "He is a really good man." I don't believe he is out of prison yet.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2011 07:36PM by cl2.
Hypocrisy Hypocrisy. The Mormon cult loves to promote itself as the family oriented religion. (I guess you missed all of those commercials.) Moism also promotes its famous members as if being Mormon had something to do with their rise to fame and that it is some sort of indication that they aren’t all just a bunch of crazy, weird cultists. This revelation of sexual abuse and incest will not work well in this plan. Perversion is not surprising in the cult as it teaches sexual repression, strongly punishing some for not staying in line and then winking at others when they stray. Mormonism has its roots in perversion. Joseph Smith was seducing other men’s wives and daughters with promises of eternal life and marriage. Eleven of his illegal wives were already married and eleven were under 20, (Helen Mar Kimball, his buddy’s daughter, was just 14. She was relieved when Smith was gunned down because she wanted a young man.)
Your story about your neighbor is unfortunate, but doesn't show that "Mormons are more prone to sexual abuse of children"
Sorry, that's shit evidence. If people want to make claims like this they should have something to back it up, otherwise it comes off as hateful and ignorant.
I can start posting "story after story" of non-Mormons abusing children. That wouldn't mean that not being a member makes an individual more likely to rape children.
OK, glad you're out. My evidence is only one example. Stick around or read some past threads and you'll find many examples that are also just one person's story, but they all add up.
And how would you go about taking a poll of the bishops to create a factual survey - hey, guys are you molesting children? Of course they would lie, even if one were dumb enough to ask.
Circumstantial evidence can be damning, but no, it wouldn't satisfy a sociology prof writing a paper that would go under peer review.
" how would you go about taking a poll of the bishops to create afactual survey - hey, guys are you molesting children"
Valid points. I have no idea how you could really prove it, nor do I know if anyone has ever attempted it. Also, I'm not saying I know one way or the other. It could very well be true that Mormonism is particularly riddled with abuse.
My understanding is that abuse is not tolerated. If there are cover-ups and conspiracy it will come out, just like it did with the Catholics.
That they have the power of discernment, the priesthood, special protective underwear but at the end of the day they are just like every other group of people in the world. Some of them abuse children, some lie, some create ponzi schemes. Abuse like this just shows that all of their claims are worthless! Prayer doesn't protect their children. The priesthood didn't stop the abuse and all of their leaders with their Holy Ghost and discernment didn't protect these children- that is why it is significant that he was Mormon.
I think it's definitely worth pointing out when a criminal is Mormon.
Mormons claim to have exclusive access to transformative truths and religious experiences. Actively participating in the Mormon faith is supposed to create strong, wholesome families and individuals that are shining beacons of light in a dark and dreary world.
Every time there's a story about a criminal who is a Mormon, that facts stands as evidence that Mormons are 'just like everyone else' and just as prone to the ills they claim their doctrines and practices guard against. If Mormonism doesn't seem to work any better than any other faith, then that is good evidence that Mormonism doesn't have the power to deliver on its own promises.
Plus, I know when I was growing up, I definitely had an over-inflated view of the membership of the church. I thought we were the best and brightest and most righteous and most blessed. As I came to understand that Mormons were just as fallible as others, and prone to a great deal of hypocrisy, I felt more comfortable asking the kinds of questions that led me out of the church.
To that end, I'm all for pointing out the Mormon bad apples wherever they may be. Mormons believe "By their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt 7:20) and "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit...Every tree is known by his own fruit" (Luke 6:43-44). One bad apple might not spoil the whole bunch, but it certainly speaks to the fact that Mormons aren't any special disease-resistant variety. If they're not anything special, then they need to stop expecting the world to view them as such, and stop claiming to have answers that can cure the world of its ills.
How do you know what my intent was? My intent was just as it stated: inform the board of "another Mormon pervert". The rest was responding to your red herrings.
I think some of the problem is that young people are closeted with the bishop to discuss sexual matters. This can lead to broaching a subject that never comes up in churches w/o such confessions. And if one is so inclined, that provides a segue into further things. It's a boundary issue, and kids aren't prepared by TSCC to deal with such, they're told to respect and honor the Bishop etc. Add to that the fact that they are then made to feel guilty if such abuse does happen, and presto, you have a situation for ongoing crap to happen and not be reported.
Major, major props to those women for coming forward and being public about the abuse they suffered and who perpetrated it. Seriously. That is some tough shit to deal with period, but to be willing to acknowledge it publicly and be unashamed-- good for them. They are a good example to abuse survivors everywhere. I'm sorry for what they have been through, but very grateful that they are going about their recovery in a way that could potentially encourage other survivors to realize that being a victim is not something to be ashamed of.
Not a Mormon nor have I ever been. My best friend of eleven years left the church thirteen years ago. We have been working on writing a book for the past five years of her experience and sexual abuse within the church.
In her particular case when she tried to leave her abusive husband who was in the Seventies the church abandoned her and covered for her abusive husband.
She left the city where she had been living with her husband and went to a women's shelter in another city. When she first went to the Bishop where she was staying to receive help in getting her car fixed he was initially very kind and said the church would help.
When she returned the next day to get the voucher she was turned away. The first Bishop had contacted the Bishop in her home ward and when he discovered who her husband was it was all over. She was told to go home to her husband.
I don't care what religion it is. If the church is covering up for 'Sick People and Sick Abusive Activity' then something is terribly, terribly wrong.
I listened to a police officer, about a year ago, tell a group that of all the areas he's worked, as an officer, UT County has a HIGH incidence of abuse.
Two reasons religions seem to have higher rates of pedophiles: #1 Most religions (Mormonism and Muslims in particular) teach that outside of marriage, sex is a grievous sin in line with murder. Even within the confines of marriage, many sexual acts are off limits. Some people (men especially) will find a way to satisfy their sexual needs, and sadly, children are easy targets. #2 Religion is a great cover for people with bad intentions. Want to appear to be a great person? Show up at church, serve, and put on the appearance of being a great guy. I believe, and have seen evidence of, many wretched, evil people using religion to package themselves as good guys, while underneath the veneer they are doing monstrous things. I know firsthand of a couple coverups by mormon bishops. Not all bishops will act so cowardly, but one has to wonder if all the molestation cases reported to bishops were investigated by the law, how many men would be left in the priesthood?